Doesnt all that training go out the window?

[Corporal Hicks]

I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?

Regards

Nick

 

[MA-Caver]

*Sigh*
Boy Scout motto Nick, the Boy Scout motto.
You can train several lifetimes in whatever art you choose and be the best there ever has been. But nothing is going to stop you from getting your butt whupped by some cranked out punk-assed loser if you're not prepared.
Several dozen threads have dealt with this particular topic already in one form or another.
You can work out 4 or 5 days a week (gotta give your body a rest so knock off the everyday stuff) and train hard for four or five hours a day (gotta give your body a rest I tell ya!) and gradually your body is the epitome of the Martial Artist.
But it ain't gonna be able to do squat if the mind isn't prepared along with it. Memorizing stances, kicks, forms, techniques, throws, joint locks, evasion, pin-downs, punches is all well and good and just as vital as honing your body to preform all of those. But it's been repeated here on MT that you have to train your mind to be watchful of your environment as well. Observe all who can be observed, look ahead of the path you're walking and see the numerous places an attacker/mugger/dipwad can hide and spring out on you in an ambush, see possible escape routes along the way... and so forth.
It's not paranoid it's being smart... street smart and there are ways to do it without looking like you're looking over your shoulder every five seconds. :uhoh:
When the attack happens you're already there and already ahead of them. You know where all the broken glass is and other stuff that you can trip on, you know how far it is behind you to the curb so when a guy is trying to back you into a corner you don't trip over it, your mind is prepared for that hand on the shoulder and that "hey buddy!" low and dangerous from behind.

"...last night the wife said; o' boy when you're dead, you gonna take nothing with ya but your soul.... THINK!"

No truer words ever sang than those by John Lennon.
Brain training, something taught to me by my friends in the Search And Rescue units. Brain train yourself to prepare for whatever comes. Don't go crazy with your imagination, be realistic, rely on past experiences ask yourself... what can I do better, what if?
Another prepration and no less important. Your spirit. Call it warrior spirit or whatever you want. If you got a faith/religion that bolsters your spirit, then work on that as well, because that should be trained and worked and honed to a fine edge as much as your mind and body.
Work a little on each, then work on tying them together in harmony. To where the mind, spirit and body are as one... you. :yinyang:
Read my sigs... both of them. See how they relate to your experience and training and the years to come.
Learn to read your surroundings and see the attack coming before it commences and thus you'll be better prepared and less surprised should it ever happen. Alert and sniffin at shadows ... that's you on the inside... but outside ... cool :supcool:, confident :ultracool , and at peace :uhyeah:

It takes time but it'll happen. Be confident in your training and expect the unexpected. You'll be just fine.

:asian:

 

[Bod]

I guess you want to learn to avoid total sucker punches where you didn't see it coming (i.e. not the type where the other guy chats you up while getting his stance correct - thats another kind of sucker punch).

If that is so then try this: get a friend to jump you every so often - think Cato and Cleuso. Note your response - it'll probably be along the lines of waving your hands around in front of your face and leaning backwards. Practice transitioning from this flinch response into a more appropriate response - say moving off at an angle, preparing your stance and moving back in or whatever.

Drill the response from the initial flinch. Be careful with attacks from behind - make sure it's appropriate - say turning away from a grabbing hand while raising a guard with some head movement - rather than an immediate back elbow / kick combination.

I find this has worked a treat. You train the flinch to be a stimulus for your next move. This may help to limit damage in an actual encounter.

My friend who I drilled these moves with actually pulled them off in real life when he got sucker punched. The flinch turned into a guard while stepping off followed by a high percentage move. He felt like he was just waving his hands around in panic but the video evedience made it look like he knew the punch was coming and reacted perfectly.

As for the other type of sucker punch - the interview sucker punch - check out Geoff Thompson.

 

[MJS]

Excellent replies! One thing that can aid in overcoming the fear, is to make sure that the training is "alive". Now, before anyone starts on the aliveness kick--which this discussion is not about aliveness--- we need to keep in mind that while we may not be able to exactly replicate a street fight 100%, we can however, make sure that we are getting resistance on our 'attackers' part, when doing SD, as well as working techs. where you don't know what kind of attack is coming at you.

For example: There were times, when I'd do a tech. line or circle. I would often have the 'attackers' throw out techs. that were unfamiliar to the 'defender' and 9 times out of 10, they would stand there with that "deer in the headlights" look on their face, clueless as to what to do. I'd ask them, "Do you know how to block, punch, kick, move, etc?" "Yes" would be the reply. My response would be, "Then do it!!" And they would, and they would then realize that they don't have to think, but simply react. A SD tech. does not have to be a complex series of 10 moves. Short and Sweet!!!!! The point of this: To condition the student to react, and not think, "OK, what tech. do I do?" because when the heat is on, there will be no time for thinking.

Mike

 

[loki09789]

I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?

Regards

Nick

Think about the difference between watching a little league baseball game, a high school level/college level/farm league/professional game:

What is the single most important difference between all these games?

Experience. One year is not going to make a difference in 'street sense' or anything else. Would one year of training make you fit for the MLB? No.

It takes six months of immersion in a foriegn language on the average before you just start to get the littlest nuances/hints of patterns and basic conventions. Until then it is just confusion and frustration.

Skill takes time. Whether it is 'self control/awareness' skills or hand to hand skills.

Even at the professional levels, the difference between veteran players and freshmen players in clutch situations is vast. Seasoned players are better able to stay come because of experience. They are better at making tactical decisions, they are generally calmer because it isn't new.

Martial arts example.

We were working on a form in class, my wife has done it a million times but it had been a while. We went through it 10 times in the air first and then lined up so that with each direction change someone fed you the simulated attack.

On the second turn, the feeder decided to be tricky and use a stick instead of a punch. She drew a blank because of that one piece of new stimulus and couldn't even remember the next steps after.

Experience is a BIG factor in how to hold onto some level of coolness and tactical responsiveness.

 

[OC Kid]

Repitition, going over self defense against various attacks with simple yet effective techniques. They become action rather than reaction. Thats what makes the basics so good , is the effectivity and their simplicity.

thats kind (in my mind) the purpose of practicing kata, block and counter drills ect.

Example, I a situation not to long ago where someone tried to assualt me. they raised their knee like a TKD kick or a knee strike at close range. Iused a exact move out of Bassai Sho to block it. It was the kata I was practiccing over and over at the the time. After blocking the knee they came with a over hand bttom fist strike which I blocked using the very next move from the kata.

Coincidence..probably but effective yes.

Another situation using basics, on our line drills I use kicking and punching combos going fwd. When we reach the wall or as far as we can go in that direction I dont have the students turn around and repeat. Right from there we do defensive rear kicks (or another defensive kick).
my son got jumped twice both from behind and took the attacker out using the defensive rears that we practice with out any thought. It was all action in response to the situation.
That can only come by repitition.

Learning and repeating the basics can be boring but once they are ingrained they will work for you.

Even in pro sports like football, players practice their assignments over and over till they become automatic. To where they dont even think. The QB justs takes the snap and throws the ball knowing the reciever will be there. in most cases he is.

 

[DarrenJew]

You'll know if your catching on, when someone comes up from behind you and startles you. If you automatically jump into a fighting stance or take some type of defensive posture, you know your progressing.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Just like Inspector Clouseau !

 

[Adept]

The bottom line is: You fight the way you train.

If you arent trained to take on genuinely aggresive opponents, then when you have to do that you will react like any layman off the street.

All the posts on this thread have given excellent advice. Pick what is most applicable for you, and apply it in your everyday life.

 

[AC_Pilot]

Adept, great point. The owner of the MMA dojo when I kickbox says regularly to me that I "train hard" etc..it's most obvious on the heavy bag. I tell him that I train the way I fight.. all out.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?

Regards

Nick

If what your training is complex fine motor skills, then yes, it will all go out the window. If what you are training is simple gross motor techniques to deal with aggression and you train under realistic conditions, then no, it doesn't just go out the window. The problem sometimes isn't that the martial arts don't work, but that very visually appealing techniques that require fine motor skills don't work. Remember what the Martial in Martial Art means. Combat is combat, just because someones particular solution to a combat situation isn't effective, that doesn't mean that studying combat is useless. It just means you may have to reexamine what you are studying. Boxers aren't a loss about what to do in a street fight, nor are wrestlers, kick boxers, many BJJ practioners, etc. Because some types of styles and techniques are flawed in this area, some people pronounce all martial arts as ineffective, and that isn't the case. I started out in police work from the academy trying to do the fine motor skill techniques they taught me. In the 8 years since then i've developed techniques I teach to my officers and use myself that are built around gross motor functions that are simple, effective and decisive. I try to tailor my techniques to things that are very natural to way the human body moves. If I can't teach it in less than 5 minutes and the officer can't use it instinctively, I trash can the technique. If it takes more than 5 minutes to figure out the technique after you're shown it, it won't work in the street (I didn't say master, I said learn it enough to demonstrate it.) That should be a good rule.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Old musicians adage

"Practice how you'll play because you'll play how you practice"

Rather embarrasing but an instructor told me and another guy to do some two step sparring (no or minimal contact). Aggressor does a reverse punch to the midsection, defender steps out with an outer-blck and counters with a reverse punch to the ribs. First time my opponent did this, I instinctively reacted with a self-defense move I'd been taught and practicing, including a knife-hand shot to the tricep and a two punches to the ribs....poor guy

 

[Drac]

The bottom line is: You fight the way you train.

If you arent trained to take on genuinely aggresive opponents, then when you have to do that you will react like any layman off the street.

All the posts on this thread have given excellent advice. Pick what is most applicable for you, and apply it in your everyday life.

What he said...

 

[Flamebearer]

Another old musicians' adage:

Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.


So.... drill your muscles in a few basic blocks and strikes so you'll react instinctively. I liked the "flinch as trigger" comment earlier. Hopefully the drilled moves will see you through until your brain wakes up to the fact that you're being attacked.

Actually, awareness should come before anything. Be extremely paranoid! Keep thinking what you'd do if "that guy over there" made an aggressive move. Yeah, it can be embarrassing if you misinterpret a move. :whip:
Here's a story.

I was at a local community college, walking down the hallway, and of course there were all these guys lounging around, leaning on the walls. I'm a very paranoid, suspicious person, so I was keeping an eye out for anybody that wanted to try anything stupid. One guy stepped out rather quickly as I was preparing to turn the corner, and before I knew it I'd slid my backpack off my shoulder (I only carry it on one) and my hands were halfway up to a guard position. Of course when I realized that he was only looking down the hall for his friend.... I felt pretty embarrassed. Stupid. Etc. (I hope nobody noticed - I really jumped the gun on that one.)

But the point is I'm trying to illustrate the kind of mindset I'm talking about.
I'm going to shut up now and let you laugh.:asian:

-Flamebearer

 

[FearlessFreep]

Another old musicians' adage:

Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

I learned that in swimming before I was even a musician. It was a focus on proper technique

Keep thinking what you'd do if "that guy over there" made an aggressive move

He he, I'm starting to do that more often I'm often out late at night and I've noticed my awareness is much higher and also my tendancy to keep a peripheral watch on the people around me

 

[AC_Pilot]

Take up weapons training.. something real world like knife fighting with sparring (dull or plastic knives) Kali is the best art for me for this, as it's been proven for centuries in the Philpines, by, among others, some of the most fierce and dangerous of the islanders, the Moros. You'll learn to respect a weapon (and some people's ability to use them) and your speed and evasion/counterattack skills will grow. Train with as many different people as you can.. some people will surprise you with their speed and you'll grow and mature as a result.


Knife/stick/sword training, if it's realistic, tends to bring out a faster response and crisper motions. This builds reaction time and sensitivity, which are crucial. In JKD theory, ideally we do not "block", we "block or pass while simultaneously striking", the "third hand of kali" is a perfect example of this and why guru Dan Inosanto won Bruce over to Kali/Escrima. In fact Dan was to star in Bruce's last film in the pagoda fight scene. here's Dan's website: http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kali.html Note on the left side of the page, the sequence of the third hand of kali strike..(subtract the "gunting" or bicep destruction and just think about using the left arm to block/avoid and strike at the same time, by angling to the left with the upper body)

These techniques/theories can speed up your "response" and when you realize how to fully implement them, your confidence level will grow commensurately.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

Take up weapons training.. something real world like knife fighting with sparring (dull or plastic knives) Kali is the best art for me for this, as it's been proven for centuries in the Philpines, by, among others, some of the most fierce and dangerous of the islanders, the Moros. You'll learn to respect a weapon (and some people's ability to use them) and your speed and evasion/counterattack skills will grow. Train with as many different people as you can.. some people will surprise you with their speed and you'll grow and mature as a result.


Knife/stick/sword training, if it's realistic, tends to bring out a faster response and crisper motions. This builds reaction time and sensitivity, which are crucial. In JKD theory, ideally we do not "block", we "block or pass while simultaneously striking", the "third hand of kali" is a perfect example of this and why guru Dan Inosanto won Bruce over to Kali/Escrima. In fact Dan was to star in Bruce's last film in the pagoda fight scene. here's Dan's website: http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kali.html Note on the left side of the page, the sequence of the third hand of kali strike..(subtract the "gunting" or bicep destruction and just think about using the left arm to block/avoid and strike at the same time, by angling to the left with the upper body)

These techniques/theories can speed up your "response" and when you realize how to fully implement them, your confidence level will grow commensurately.

Ok so I keep praticing with my nunchuckas which is already ingrained so I dont have to think about it, my brain commands the thought and my arms comply. I just have to apply this to normal fighting?

Regards

 

[MJS]

Ok so I keep praticing with my nunchuckas which is already ingrained so I dont have to think about it, my brain commands the thought and my arms comply. I just have to apply this to normal fighting?

Regards

As for the weapons training mentioned in the post. I believe that AC was talking about FMA training. Yes, anytime you pick up a weapon, your hand/eye co-ordination will improve, but keep in mind that you're not fighting another person in training with nunchucks. The FMAs consist of training weapon against weapon : Stick vs. Stick, Stick vs. Empty Hand, Stick vs. Knife, Knife vs. Knife, Knife vs. Empty Hand. In this fashion, the hand/eye coord. will greatly improve.

Mike

 

[OULobo]

I have to agree with Adept on this one. The best way to prepare for things that go wrong in a fight, as they always do, is to train with everything going wrong. The smallest things can throw off you concentration and your game. Train with things like adreanalin dumps, multiple attackers and wild fast strikes. I also agree with familiararity with gross motor strikes. They are what you will revert to in a panic and what you will experience from most attackers, so have them trained well.

 

[Corporal Hicks]

I have to agree with Adept on this one. The best way to prepare for things that go wrong in a fight, as they always do, is to train with everything going wrong. The smallest things can throw off you concentration and your game. Train with things like adreanalin dumps, multiple attackers and wild fast strikes. I also agree with familiararity with gross motor strikes. They are what you will revert to in a panic and what you will experience from most attackers, so have them trained well.

Damn, I sure wish I had the time at the moment! Not with exams I dont! Damn!