Does your fighting look like your forms?

[jks9199]

A few threads recently lead me to pondering...

Does your fighting look like the forms in your style? If not, why not?

After all, if forms are supposed to teach the strategies and principles of a form, shouldn't what we do when we fight bear some reasonable resemblance? Shouldn't we be able to have some idea what style a person has trained in when we see them fight, based on the tactics, techniques, and strategies they use?

Does your style teach a distinctive combat stance? A particular lead for particular reasons? Do you use this?

Of course, in the real world, and in real application, we often don't look nearly as pretty as we'd like -- but shouldn't there be a recognizable resemblance as we fight?

 

[Steel Tiger]

I think that my fighting does look like my forms. Not exactly the same, that would be a bit weird, but pretty similar. I think it is the nature of internal styles that the principles of movement, attack and defence are so ingrained into the forms and techniques, that if one is following them then ones fighting must look like ones forms.

 

[Christina05]

Never really gave that much thought until now.I would have to say to some certain degree that yes my fighting does look like my forms.

 

[MA-Caver]

I'm not sure if this is going to answer the question adequately, just my opinion based on too little formal training vs too much real-life street fighting experience. I've been exposed to a lot of MA to understand concepts of techniques/forms and so on.
Ideally; forms, if properly executed in a (real) fight would look like they would when you train. Problem sometimes is that the other person isn't a Wing Chunner, or a Kenpoist, or even a TKD-er (or whatever art)... they're not going to react the same way as your training partner would when you're in the dojo.
When I uked for someone who was studying Kenpo/EPAK, I used to frustrate the hell out of them because I wasn't reacting the "way I should've." I had to fight against this and go with the flow and allow them to complete their technique/forms against me so that they practice like they should and could pass their test(s). Happy to help out when-where-ever I could. :asian: But it taught me a lot as well.
I could see the effects of the elbow strike to the chin and the finger rake across the eyes and so on and so on, but I kept thinking if it were real, even if they were hitting me full power would I react this way? Would say a former H.S. linebacker weighing in at 240 and standing 6'-2" react this way? Maybe they've been working out, toughening up and so on, maybe a hard backwards elbow strike to the solar-plexus just might bounce off them. What about their reaction should I get a (full-power) strike of my own in? That when put into a hold/throw I don't allow my body to go the way it's supposed to. There are counter moves for every move out there. But I'm not including locks mind you. That's something different altogether.
I've taken (real) full-power strikes across the chin/face, one confrontation had the guy striking me 7 times and all he did was move my head and I still stood there. The guy outweighed me by about 100 pounds and was putting his full shoulder into it and still I didn't budge (I was pissed and wasn't planning on moving... the fight is another story). Point is that it (I) wasn't going the way he planned. Hit me hard as he could and I go down.
I've been in enough real fights to know nothing ever-ever goes the way it planned. But I've seen/known enough MA (of different styles) to know that if enacted quickly enough the other guy isn't going to be able to change their plans faster. Especially if they don't have the training.
I personally don't think it's realistic to think that anyone you use (for real) your techniques on is going to react the same way your uke does in the dojo.
But that's just me. :idunno: :asian:

 

[Steel Tiger]

But I've seen/known enough MA (of different styles) to know that if enacted quickly enough the other guy isn't going to be able to change their plans faster. Especially if they don't have the training.
I personally don't think it's realistic to think that anyone you use (for real) your techniques on is going to react the same way your uke does in the dojo.
But that's just me. :idunno: :asian:

I have to agree with you. Too many people assume that the willing or semi-willing training partner is actually doing what would really happen, and when it doesn't they are lost. It is a big trap. One cannot assume that because one has performed technique "A" then technique "B" will automatically follow.

My fighting looks like my forms but not because I move from the first technique to the second to the third and so on. It looks like it because of the way I have been taught to move and the angles and directions of attack inherent in the style.

 

[Sensei Payne]

I trained in China-te, which is a stand up MMA style which was oriented specificlly on training for full contact fighting, which a little bit of traditional thrown in there...and there was a lot of boxing envolved..

Now I am training in Ryukyu Kempo, which the china-te style was based off of. So I belive that I have a good foundation of both, and yes my fighting style looks a bit like my kata, because my kata from china-te where the Naihanchi Katas, Pinion, kusankyu, and Passi Katas, just with slight changes...So the transition is not that hard at all

But to answer the question, does my fighting style look like my kata's, I would have to say YES

Karate No Michi

 

[jks9199]

I have to agree with you. Too many people assume that the willing or semi-willing training partner is actually doing what would really happen, and when it doesn't they are lost. It is a big trap. One cannot assume that because one has performed technique "A" then technique "B" will automatically follow.

My fighting looks like my forms but not because I move from the first technique to the second to the third and so on. It looks like it because of the way I have been taught to move and the angles and directions of attack inherent in the style.

That's the point I'm getting after... I'm not suggesting that you do set 1 of form 3 when someone punches you.

But, I think when you see someone from a particular style fight, especially in a sparring situation, you should be able to recognize what they're doing. Cung Le in all the various MMA events seems like a good example; he's got style. It's clean, precise, and I'd bet that his instructors have no problem recognizing what they've taught him. At the other end of the scale, I'm sure we've all seen students start to spar where there's no clue what they've been practicing or learning, 'cause ain't none of it in their fighting. Nor am I suggesting that people shouldn't develop their own style; just that a Shotokan fighter should look like Shotokan, Bando folk oughta look like Bando, TKD like TKD, and so on, instead of the all-too-common (IMHO) "modified kickboxing/wrestling stance."

 

[ppko]

I am going to say yes and no, here is another question to ponder does your training look like your fighting. You have to addapt in a combat situation, so to a certain extent things are going to change. Your forms should be like your techniques in my oppinion flexible and able to change with situations.

 

[OnlyAnEgg]

I would have to say mostly no, it does not look like my forms.

While I use certain techniques derived from kata, my stance is way different: very low and springy.

While I have not been training as long as many, I would imagine, over time, my fighting techniques will look more similar to kata movement.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have had students practice their forms step by step while sparring but I do allow them to back away or side step and wait till the oppertunity for the next move in the form to be preformed,

as for actual fighting NO my forms look preety good most of the time, and my fighting is sloppy at times or goes outside of my forms

 

[qi-tah]

I think that my fighting does look like my forms. Not exactly the same, that would be a bit weird, but pretty similar. I think it is the nature of internal styles that the principles of movement, attack and defence are so ingrained into the forms and techniques, that if one is following them then ones fighting must look like ones forms.

I live for the day when my fighting will start to consistantly resemble ba gua mechanics!

What do they say... 15 years to bare proficiency in ba gua? So i'm barely a third of the way there. At the moment there are flashes, but mainly it is just scrambling. Plus a lot of the way i fight is pinched from various places... schoolyard wrestling, rugby, zi ran men, ba gua, xing yi, san shou... it's a bit of a mess. But my fighing style is getting softer (even a little smarter!), so i guess the internal stuff is paying off...

 

[Langenschwert]

We don't have "forms" in WMA, but we do practice techniques into order to learn general principles. On a good day, I'm able to use the techniques and principles the way they're supposed to work. Interestingly enough, I've found them to work better on people that don't study German Longsword than those who do. It seems to me at least, that what the opponent "should" do it very likely what they will do under pressure IME. However, drawing a flinch response with weapons is somewhat easier.

-Mark

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I took karate, jiu jitsu and kickboxing. The only time it looks like my forms is in sparring. Otherwise I bite, chew, spit it out.

 

[MA-Caver]

I took karate, jiu jitsu and kickboxing. The only time it looks like my forms is in sparring. Otherwise I bite, chew, spit it out.

Oh? So you don't hand it back to them saying: "This is yours..." :lol:

 

[Sensei Payne]

Oh? So you don't hand it back to them saying: "This is yours..." :lol:

I say..."Um...I think you dropped this"...lol

 

[CuongNhuka]

From actual fighting, I wouldn't know. From sparring, yes and no. I don't do moves straight out of a form, but I apply many of the techniques. Most of which are the techniques that are actualy combinations of techniques that are only taught in the forms. And they tick people off. Even through sparring gloves, pressure point strikes HURT!
We teach a mulittude of stances and guards. High stances, low stances, wide stances, short stances, squared up stances, daigonel stances, perpendicular stances, and so on. We also allow (and encourage) people to find a stance out side the style to use. Assuming they have tried the other stances taught in Cuong Nhu. Look at mine, it is based on two stances taught in Cuong Nhu, and the Wing Chun Side Horse stance. Same with the guard. We do (however) have a recommended stance and guard.
The real question isn't "does your sparring look like your forms" it's "if your sparring doesn't look like your forms, why do you practice forms, or study that style?" In my oppion.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

No. Because the forms aren't supposed to look like fighting at all( When the Dutch took over Indonesia the natives hid their Silat training in their dancing for exactly that reason, and before the Dutch it was done so as to keep neighboring tribes from gaining insight as to how you moved as well.)

 

[kidswarrior]

There are a variety of thoughtful, interesting answers here, but I just don't have the time to address all that I'd like to. I still do wonder though, if by 'fight' we mean sparring or street defense. I see answers that presume one or the other, but not usually an answer to both. So, I'll just leave that for another time.

Instead of trying to answer for how it 'should' be or should look, I'm just going to skip to my own experience and call it a night. Studied three arts:

Hapkido: The traditional guys I studied with didn't believe in forms. But we sparred every night, and it looked like our training.

Shaolin Kempo: The forms had nothing to do with fighting at all (neither sparring nor street)--unless you were 'fighting' a totally compliant partner who did what he was told. Now this is not an indictment of SKK, heck I still practice it; it was just the particular place I trained. (Note: Now, with the help of some books, tapes, trial and error, 'going live' with some partners, the forms are actually beginning to show useful fighting applications).

Kung Fu San Soo: The forms are ugly, the fighting's ugly; it's fast (though not hurried) and brutal, and yeah, they match pretty well. Don't call it Ugly Fu for nothing.

Anyway, I hope that adds something to the discussion, as I believe forms are an important part of MA, and they were neglected in 2/3 of my training.

 

[exile]

Well, what I've done as a result of the kind of thinking I've been trying to do about the combat application of forms is, in my visualization of the forms, make my practice of the movements more of an acting out of the combat applications themselves. If the movement calls for a 90º turn to start, a retraction of the right fist, a left down block, a forward step into front stance, a middle lunge punch, followed by a 180º turn into a right down block and the sequence reruns in mirro image, then what I do when I do the forms is the action for the bunkai that I've worked out for that subsequence: I start off imagining I'm facing an assailant who's grabbed me; the 90º turn + the retraction of the right turn corresponds to a wrist grab and turn to establish a lock on the wrist, the chamber for the downblock is performed as an elbow or forearm pin on his grabbing arm trapped by my lock, and I picture putting pressure on the elbow pin with the forward step (projecting my weight onto his pinned arm) accompanying the `chamber' to the down block; I carry out the down block as its corresponding actual movement, a hammer fist to his face or a forearm strike to this neck... that sort of thing. In other words, my form looks more like my fighting because I practice it, as much as possible, as the oyo, the application of the interpretation, rather than as a series of moves independent of its combat interpretaion. It's hard to do this all the time, because there are many, many subsequences within the forms I practice that I haven't worked out plausible bunkai for...

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

I practice my forms a variety of different ways and approach fights many different ways.

Yes.

_Don Flatt