Does This Seem Fair?

[Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu]

Was training at my Sensei's Dojo the other day when he asked me to take over classes so he could get a drink, talk with some of the leaving students etc. As he was talking to some of the students in the lobby, a couple of punk kids (I'd say 13, 14 at the oldest) walk by. They stop in front of the front window, the one kid pitches the bird into the Dojo and the other spit on the window. My Sensei pretty much burst outside, the one kid tried taking a swing at him so he grabbed the one kid by his shirt, picked him up and wiped off the spit stain...with the kid. The two kids ran off and we thought this would be the end of the incident.

Half hour later, the a police officer shows up saying that he's investigating a case of assault against my Sensei. All the students backed up my Sensei's story as to why he did what he did. The police officer said that he didn't believe us as we would 'obviously' back up our instructor. As he is in good standing with the police in our town they let him off with a warning, told him that if they ever heard of him 'assaulting' anyone they would be forced to fine him etc etc.

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

 

[MJS]

Was training at my Sensei's Dojo the other day when he asked me to take over classes so he could get a drink, talk with some of the leaving students etc. As he was talking to some of the students in the lobby, a couple of punk kids (I'd say 13, 14 at the oldest) walk by. They stop in front of the front window, the one kid pitches the bird into the Dojo and the other spit on the window. My Sensei pretty much burst outside, the one kid tried taking a swing at him so he grabbed the one kid by his shirt, picked him up and wiped off the spit stain...with the kid. The two kids ran off and we thought this would be the end of the incident.

Half hour later, the a police officer shows up saying that he's investigating a case of assault against my Sensei. All the students backed up my Sensei's story as to why he did what he did. The police officer said that he didn't believe us as we would 'obviously' back up our instructor. As he is in good standing with the police in our town they let him off with a warning, told him that if they ever heard of him 'assaulting' anyone they would be forced to fine him etc etc.

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

I can certainly see your instructors frustration. However, I do believe this in fact was an assault. Reference. What I do find odd, is that he doesn't take your instructors word as to what happened, but he takes the word of a 13 or 14 yo?

In the future, it would be best for someone to get a solid description of the kids and call the police. Will they be able to locate the kids? Possibly, but at least there will be documentation in the event of future acts of vandalism.

 

[Christina05]

In the future, it would be best for someone to get a solid description of the kids and call the police. Will they be able to locate the kids? Possibly, but at least there will be documentation in the event of future acts of vandalism.[/quote]

I agree.Its always good to have it documented you never know if there will be further vandalism that will occur when no one is around

 

[Kacey]

Should the kids have done what they did? No. Nonetheless, I feel that your instructor's response was excessive - and became so the second he laid hands on one of them. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but word (and gestures) will never hurt me" - grabbing someone and "wiping the window" with them is not appropriate to what was said and done, especially when the first action was by children, and the response was by an adult.

 

[Drac]

Its WRONG, but its the law...In this galdammed sue happy society was gotta be real careful...

 

[14 Kempo]

My take on it is the same as with MJS as far as the story ... if they really had beileved the kids over the instructor, more would have been done. As with Kacey, I believe too much was done. At least here in California, there was no threat of bodily harm, so therefore nothing could be done. In agreement with others, file a report in case there is further vandalism.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Your Sensi should have just talk to the kids if they didn't run away.
In a calm lecture manner. (and maybe invite them join )

Your Sensi was WRONG and set the wrong role model for his students. One should be humble and show kindness.

No one was physcial hurt by the "trouble kids" that have NO respect of others as well as themselves.

Anger is learn thing....use too much? will get you into more trouble.

There is always more than one way to handle situtions.....anger does not work, violence in this case was not the right answer.

It takes a BIG minded person to handle this in a calm,cool headed manner...he could have turn it into an opportunity and invited those kids in (I don't think they would? ..but down the road? they might want to join because the Sensi treated them like a human being!)

Act of kindness ...work better most times!

If you were those kids and the Sensi caught your and treated you with kindness? How would you react the next time?

Aloha (always be humble, practice kindness and let this spread).

 

[Big Don]

My Sifu had a similar incident that he told me about. He grabbed the kid by the arm and walked to the kid's house and talked to his parents.

 

[newGuy12]

I swear, I'll never get it. I fear that I'll never understand this higher thinking. I can see that a person (me, or anyone else) should try to be a GOOD person, not cause any trouble, forgive others when they harm me. I understand that, and accept that.

BUT, if someone gives insult to a martial arts school?

???

The way I see it, that person is either:

1) Insane

2) REALLY ASKING FOR A BEAT-DOWN!!!

Now, in the case of '1', there's nothing to do. The person doesn't understand things well enough to live rightly with "the big group" (society).

In the case of '2', the way that I see it... Its just a dang shame that we live in a country where the law (and lawyers) are too quick to jump in the fray. Some young person who does that needs to be set straight!

Its a shame that the law could not be "worked around" by sending a young student to give chase and give him "THIS"! POW!

Now, OBVIOUSLY, judging from the above thread, I am wrong to feel this way. Furthermore, the ryu which I am trying to join now DEMANDS that the student be of good character before being taught the higher forms.

I am middle-aged now, so what's the point anyway? I will not be some great fighter, I should not fret if I am not judged to be of good enough character. But who can deny themselves? I am who and what I am, no?

Oh well, on to do push-ups AGAIN, hoping to get from 10 to 11 (the usual is 20, which I cannot do yet, weak as I am!!!).





Regards,

Robert

 

[Sensei Payne]

Kids are kids...but you have to stop and think...what adult made them think that they could actually do that?

 

[jks9199]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?

 

[Tez3]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?

I have to agree with this totally. The instructor went over the top. Tempting though it was to retailate he should not have done so. The kids were in the wrong no doubt and should have been taught a lesson but not like that.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Funny though. And to be honest, who can really blame him?

 

[Carol]

I have a serious issue with an adult trained fighter beating on a child to prove a point. Yeah, the kids are idiots, that's fer sure....but that instructor was totally out of line.

At least when I did stupid stuff like that as a kid, I didn't do it to a martial arts school :lol2: (oh did I say that out loud?).

 

[stone_dragone]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...

I don't know. Speaking of which, I need to go be a parent...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yes, your instructor committed an assault and battery. And he did so in response to a pretty minor insult from a couple of kids.

That kind of scares me.

OK, the kid spit on the window. The other kid made an obscene gesture. Did they do anything likely to actually injure someone? Did they place anyone inside in fear of being harmed? No. Did their actions justify being confronted by an adult? Absolutely. I've had a few "nonconsensual consensual encounters" with idiots who thought they could make obscene gestures and comments to a cop. I managed to do so without touching them, unless their actions or condition (public drunkeness is illegal in VA) justified it.

I understand your instructor's position -- but his actions were wrong. And pretty close to being indefensible. What sort of example did he set for his students? Or does he have so little control of his temper?

Those are words of wisdom right there from jks9199. The instructor did commit an assault and battery really for no reason. (he let his anger and emotions get the better of him) He would have been better to try and talk with the kids or to just take a description and call the police to make a report on vandalism. Fortunately no one was hurt.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...

Yes.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not sure who is at the greatest amount of fault...

Is it the instructor for not being able to control his temper?

Possibly the kids for doing something so outlandishly rude and stupid?

Or is it the boys' parents for not raising their sons to respect other people and their property...

I don't know. Speaking of which, I need to go be a parent...

There's not really a question there.

The instructor is at fault for his actions & over-response.

The kids are at fault for their actions, which were rude & inappropriate, and even criminal in some states.

The parents are at fault for raising kids who'd do something like that.

But who is at fault isn't the issue; the instructor had the ability -- or should have -- to respond in more controlled and positive manner to everything else.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

The Martial Arts are not for retaliation or revenge but for self defense. Our training is supposed to make us better people of high character and in control of our own emotions.

Unfortunately, too many people are concerned with being able to kick someone else's butt that they don't pay attention to their real enemy- themselves.

Teachers have the responsibility of setting a good example for their students. Your teacher has set the example that it is OK to use MA on someone who is weaker than you and no threat to you physically just because they've insulted you. Your teacher did far more damage to his own reputation than an obscene gesture and spit on a window could have ever done.

_Don Flatt

 

[stone_dragone]

T
But who is at fault isn't the issue; the instructor had the ability -- or should have -- to respond in more controlled and positive manner to everything else.

No argument over this one!