Does anyone know how good Kamon Wing Chun is?

[KamonGuy2]

How does me saying i am sure they are instructors equate to me not knowing they are instructors? I am sure as in i am sure. .

If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain. Usually someone would say, yes they proved they were instructors, or yes they were definately instructors. 'I'm sure' sounds like you have guessed they were instructors. I find it hard to believe that any of our instructors would train with you, and this is why I am keen to find out their names for verification. Your word is not good enough for me. As I said, there is nothing wrong with private emailing me their names, but you have refused to do this over and over again.

If those reasons mean that then i hiope you are happy at how you arrived at your decision. Because i don't disclose information it must be nonsense. Thats fine, now lets forget this and perhaps we can enjoy more positive discourse in other threads.

Yes, if someone posts a message on here, saying Sam Kwok is rubbish with no explanation, no names given what would you think?

 

[ed-swckf]

If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain. Usually someone would say, yes they proved they were instructors, or yes they were definately instructors. 'I'm sure' sounds like you have guessed they were instructors. I find it hard to believe that any of our instructors would train with you, and this is why I am keen to find out their names for verification. Your word is not good enough for me. As I said, there is nothing wrong with private emailing me their names, but you have refused to do this over and over again.

I'm sorry but "i'm sure" means just that - "i'm sure." If you took that to mean "i am not sure" then i appologise. And i have said before that i don't need your validation, i am happy for you to dismiss what i say as nonsense, i am also happy for you to believe based on this discourse that no one from kamon would train with me, if you feel you can really make that kind of assertion then i don't mind. If my word is not good enough then be on your way and carry on, if i do get in touch with the person i am refering to and he's happy for me to disclose the information to you then i will PM you that but like i have said until then its unimportant to me if you believe me or not and i'd prefer not to break the confidence we shared without at least speaking to him. I hope you can understand, i'm trying to be reasonable and i understand your desire to know but for now you can write it off as nonsense, ok?

Yes, if someone posts a message on here, saying Sam Kwok is rubbish with no explanation, no names given what would you think?

Well i would probably react simarly to what you have. But i haven't called anyone rubbish, i have simply said from my standpoint this guy, and he was open to this, had to work on a lot of elements in chi sao. So perhaps i would have rected differently to that. He doesn't have time to see kevin often, distance and work make it a less viable option. The guy is actually a very good martial artist and he does pick up stuff quickly, but it was a little bit odd to be working on these elements with someone who instructs. Now this can happen in any organisation and often does, i know some of sams representatives probably shouldn't be and its the same all over. Its really difficult when numbers grow and i know you don't believe me at all so i am not trying to convince you of this, what i am trying to do is say i'm sorry you were offended by my commentry, it was never intended that way and i believe you have actually taken much of what i have said out of context and the wrong way. I will take responsibility for that as you were clearly upset, now this guy is a good teacher but his teaching of chi sao was not up to the standards that yourself and the rest of kamon have set, its something we must watch out for in all schools which is why i said people should check it out and compare schools etc. I mean its easy to say, he was taught by sam kwok or kevin chan thats a good school...we strive for that and aim for that but in reality we can find at times a teacher that may still not have a full grasp on everything. And they will still be very good, this is not me saying they are rubbish, i have never rubbished kamon i just highlighted that even with standards set in place all schools are far from the sum of their cheif instructors teachings and all teachers do things differently, i bet all kamon instructors are unique in their interpretation of wing chun right? Well this is just one guys interpretation.

Like i say i'm happy for you to dismiss it as complete nonsense, you have every right to. I have explained as much as i feel i should and wouldn't feel comfortable dropping names, i hope you can understand? I completely understand you thinking its nonsense however i don't believe that me not giving you are name means i'm full of nonsense, perhaps it simply means you just don't have enough information to be sure? I mean what i say could still be true, surely you must at least entertain that possibility so perhaps we could agree that its perfectly fine to regard it as nonsense unless more information is provided. With that in mind i hope we can also agree that just because i haven't presented you with all the information you need to think its not nonsense it doesn't mean that i am full of nonsense, to be honest i was begining to think that maybe you were making personal slates at me. Which is fine, its all good fun i guess.

Anyway i wish you and kamon every success, hopefully this matter is now resolved.

 

[Danny T]

Hmm! Not wanting to create any more conflict or arguement here, Just a few highlights.

Ed-swckf stated:

“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”

”I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.”


“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class.”

This statement could be applied to all organizations.

“I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc.”

Again could be applied to all organizations. There will always be some not as good as others this doesn’t mean all are not good or that they are no good. Ed-swckf even states they are good enough to teach you.
What he does state is, “…in the cases I witnessed…, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp…”

Straight forward assessment based upon his experience of that class at that moment. Not a slant against the organization or all instructors.

He then advises not to take his words good or bad as priority but to go and experience it for yourself. Great Advise.

With any large organization there will always be someone who is better that others and as for as anyone from the outside coming in with previous experience it is possible to have any individual come with a completely different perspective. Nothing wrong with that, just the normal course of life.

Ed then sums up with, “And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”
A truthfull general statement which can be applied to any organization or school.


Not taking sides just noting what was stated.

Kamon Guy stated: “…If someone says 'I'm sure', that is their opinion. It does not sound certain…”
Uh, Certain is a synonym of Sure.

Per Merriam-Webster English Dictionary

Sure
Adjective

• Firmly Established
• Reliable, Trustworthy
• marked by or given to feelings of confident
• Admitting no doubt: indisputable
• Bound to happen: inevitable
• careful to remember, attend to or find out.

Synonyms
CERTAIN, POSITIVE, COCKSURE mean having no doubt or uncertainty.
CERTAIN may apply to a basing of a conclusion or conviction on definite grounds, certainty and may imply opinionated conviction or forceful expression of it; positive-ness.

Please let us not take any general statement to mean all for all times.

Danny T

 

[brocklee]

^^ Nice I cant wait to see this thread work its way to the bottom of the database. Just arguements looping

 

[ed-swckf]

^^ Nice I cant wait to see this thread work its way to the bottom of the database. Just arguements looping

Me too!

 

[KamonGuy2]

Hmm! Not wanting to create any more conflict or arguement here, Just a few highlights.

Ed-swckf stated:

“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class. I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc. Of course what i say won't really help make up your mind, best thing to do is go down there and have a look for yourself. With a popular franchise like kamon you will easily come across people slating it for whatever reason, i say don't let any talk good or bad take priority over experiencing it for yourself. And like i say, it will depend upon the teacher in that class.”

”I wish you all the best in whatever art you choose to take on.”


“Kamon is a large franchise with classes all over the UK, the quality of each individual class will depend upon the instructor of that class.”

This statement could be applied to all organizations.

“I have had contact with a few good and a few not so good. When i say not so good, they do have the ability to teach you something and in the cases i have witnessed it still is wing chun just from a different perspective, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp with step in drills etc.”

Again could be applied to all organizations. There will always be some not as good as others this doesn’t mean all are not good or that they are no good. Ed-swckf even states they are good enough to teach you.
What he does state is, “…in the cases I witnessed…, for instance the chi sau and sensitivity work seems lacking but they were pretty sharp…”

Straight forward assessment based upon his experience of that class at that moment. Not a slant against the organization or all instructors.

Yes it is. The standard at Kamon is such that ALL instructors are extremely good. To say that any instructors chi sao is lacking is an insult. Pure and simple...

The fact that Ed won't name the people he trained with is evidence enough that he is talking nonsense. It is pure conjecture that the people he trained with are instructors at Kamon. Until he mentions any names, there is no room for any further argument. He is arrogant enough to say that the people he trained with 'weren't as experienced as him' and I have given Ed ample opportunity to quote his experience

This might be because I have trained with people from other federations including Sam Kwok, James Sinclair, Alan Orr, Wai Po Tan, Viktor Khan,
and can check his details out.

If I were to say that any of the people I trained with at these federations were lacking in chi sao, I would expect them to be upset over it.

Most of the people I have trained chi sao with from other federations have trained a different way. I have managed to destroy them, but I still would not say that their martial arts is lacking - that is rude.

And by the way, if Kevin Chan rolled hands with you and destroyed you, Ed, would you say that your chi sao is lacking?

 

[ed-swckf]

Yes it is. The standard at Kamon is such that ALL instructors are extremely good. To say that any instructors chi sao is lacking is an insult. Pure and simple...

The fact that Ed won't name the people he trained with is evidence enough that he is talking nonsense. It is pure conjecture that the people he trained with are instructors at Kamon. Until he mentions any names, there is no room for any further argument. He is arrogant enough to say that the people he trained with 'weren't as experienced as him' and I have given Ed ample opportunity to quote his experience

This might be because I have trained with people from other federations including Sam Kwok, James Sinclair, Alan Orr, Wai Po Tan, Viktor Khan,
and can check his details out.

If I were to say that any of the people I trained with at these federations were lacking in chi sao, I would expect them to be upset over it.

Most of the people I have trained chi sao with from other federations have trained a different way. I have managed to destroy them, but I still would not say that their martial arts is lacking - that is rude.

And by the way, if Kevin Chan rolled hands with you and destroyed you, Ed, would you say that your chi sao is lacking?

Well i have tried to be reasonable and smooth things over, i'm guessing you are still a little sore after feeling insulted, i applogise. so perhaps its best we stop discussing things as i feel you are taking things out of context in order to slate me. Perhaps we can discuss things when the tension has gone but right now i can't help but sense that your responses are driven by anger. I think you are attempting to entice me into further disscussion so you can further state your disapproval of anything i say. I hope you can understand this and i also hope you endevour to understand my standpoint as i have done for you and yours. I mean you must be getting bored of this discussion by now surely?

 

[KamonGuy2]

Well i have tried to be reasonable and smooth things over, i'm guessing you are still a little sore after feeling insulted, i applogise. so perhaps its best we stop discussing things as i feel you are taking things out of context in order to slate me. Perhaps we can discuss things when the tension has gone but right now i can't help but sense that your responses are driven by anger. I think you are attempting to entice me into further disscussion so you can further state your disapproval of anything i say. I hope you can understand this and i also hope you endevour to understand my standpoint as i have done for you and yours. I mean you must be getting bored of this discussion by now surely?

Not really. I just don't like off the cuff comments taht are not backed up
And yes I am driven by frustration and anger. If a martial art is poor or there is something wrong with it, then fine. But if I was criticizing a person who belonged to an organisation, I would state the name of the person rather than the organisation.

If you heard a news article that said that two unnamed McDonalds employees had been acting inappropriately, it would affect McDonalds as a whole. You would not know where the employees were, just that they worked at McDonalds.
Hence when newbies read that an instructor at Kamon 'is lacking in his chi sao' without knowing which class, it might put them off going.

This is one of the reasons I am annoyed. Your comment might have been off the cuff but it damages our reputation as a whole

 

[ed-swckf]

Not really. I just don't like off the cuff comments taht are not backed up
And yes I am driven by frustration and anger. If a martial art is poor or there is something wrong with it, then fine. But if I was criticizing a person who belonged to an organisation, I would state the name of the person rather than the organisation.

If you heard a news article that said that two unnamed McDonalds employees had been acting inappropriately, it would affect McDonalds as a whole. You would not know where the employees were, just that they worked at McDonalds.
Hence when newbies read that an instructor at Kamon 'is lacking in his chi sao' without knowing which class, it might put them off going.

This is one of the reasons I am annoyed. Your comment might have been off the cuff but it damages our reputation as a whole

Yeah but i also said there are good schools and teachers, that wasn't backed up, and i said that my commentry was not a valid way to form ones own opinion as kamon will differ from class to class. Being driven by frusrtration and anger can easily cloud ones thought and make the responses unwarrented. Now i coherently wrote that my experience wasn't a reflection of kamon as a whole but of an individual who just so happened to belong to kamon, because of this and because i understand that kamon has some very good teachers i encouraged people to visit there local kamon and let that be the deciding factor - you can't get fairer than that. I mentioned this experience only because i was asked for my experience of kamon, just as everyone else was. Now if everyone else mention kamon being great then my critique would be over shadowed as a one off, but surely we need to mention all the names of the people praised other wise it only has as much weight as my critique which is nonsense until backed up. If someone is put off by what someone says on a forum, especially when that person is urging them to find out for themselves and visit the class then that person is simply looking for reasons not to go to the class as opposed to looking for reasons to go to the class. Lets concentrate on the positives for a while, iwas telling people to go and check out kamon wing chun, thats a good thing.

You really don't need to be that worried about your reputation, if you did need to worry then coming accross more reasonable would help, i have appologised for upsetting you and i have explained that i understand why you were upset. Continually i have tried to explain my position but i was understanding in that due to the anger i had inadvertantly disturbed in you that you may not want to accept that. But perhaps now is a good point for you as a kamon representative to be receptive to the effort put into building bridges. Now i fully understand if you still would rather not but if that is the case then we have little to say, i mean we have both explained our thoughts and responded. We could be going round in circles forever if we carried on, so it would be better to end this and we can do that with an attempt to remove any bad feeling or we can get caught up in being angry at each other and make other people posting here feel less inclined to contribute.