Does an "armed society" work?

[Sukerkin]

When we have talked about this (a lot ) over the past few months, I have argued against Arni's point on the use of firearms in suicide. I was (and to an extent still am) uncertain as to the rigour and veracity of the statistics used but I have become convinced that the ability to irrevocably act on a sudden impulse does mean that suicide with a firearm, where available, does increase the risk of successfully taking your own life.

I still maintain that that fact does not justify fundamental changes to the founding legislation of America, which is what has been on the governmental table. For me, the whole farrago almost smells a little of a political smokescreen laid down to get everyone hot and bothered about something other than the bad state the country (and indeed the whole world) is in. Keep an eye out for other legislation being sneaked in under the radar.

 

[Big Don]

When we have talked about this (a lot ) over the past few months, I have argued against Arni's point on the use of firearms in suicide. I was (and to an extent still am) uncertain as to the rigour and veracity of the statistics used but I have become convinced that the ability to irrevocably act on a sudden impulse does mean that suicide with a firearm, where available, does increase the risk of successfully taking your own life.

He has been wrong about so many other facets of this debate, I just naturally assume him to be wrong on that too.

I still maintain that that fact does not justify fundamental changes to the founding legislation of America, which is what has been on the governmental table. For me, the whole farrago almost smells a little of a political smokescreen laid down to get everyone hot and bothered about something other than the bad state the country (and indeed the whole world) is in. Keep an eye out for other legislation being sneaked in under the radar.

Oh, you mean like how much Obamacare is going to hurt the people? How no survivor of Benghazi has spoken publicly 6 MONTHS after the attack, stuff like that?

 

[Sukerkin]

:chuckles: You know that I am as suspicious of the motives of all political 'houses', Don, not just the current American one . They are all damned equally in my eyes - as the saying goes, the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.

I like your signature by the way - where is the quote from?

 

[Big Don]

C.S. Lewis
Not all of it would fit. stupid word limit...
The full quote:

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

I have to think it is more relevant now than when he stated it.

 

[Drasken]

When we have talked about this (a lot ) over the past few months, I have argued against Arni's point on the use of firearms in suicide. I was (and to an extent still am) uncertain as to the rigour and veracity of the statistics used but I have become convinced that the ability to irrevocably act on a sudden impulse does mean that suicide with a firearm, where available, does increase the risk of successfully taking your own life.

I still maintain that that fact does not justify fundamental changes to the founding legislation of America, which is what has been on the governmental table. For me, the whole farrago almost smells a little of a political smokescreen laid down to get everyone hot and bothered about something other than the bad state the country (and indeed the whole world) is in. Keep an eye out for other legislation being sneaked in under the radar.

Oh I fully believe they have no real intention of taking our guns. If they wanted to hurt us they wouldn't need us to be unarmed, they'd just turn off the water.
It's all a smokescreen, focus on the left hand instead of the right one. And the media is part of it. The news doesn't report on the other murders, just the gun related ones. Because we have to focus on the guns, not how violent things have become all across the board.

Personally I grow tired of trying to bring up points about "gun control" and how the idea is fundamentally flawed. The argument is as pointless as the concept. It's all smoke and mirrors anyway.

 

[chinto]

I used to think that an armed society worked, but was not preferable. For instance, I think a society where only law enforcement has guns is always better, there will be fewer murders because murder takes much more effort and is more personal. But then once a few people (read: criminals) get guns, you have to give them to everybody to prevent inequity in means of causing harm.

But there was something I learned in social psychology that made me rethink that. It's been shown that the mere prescence of weapons in a situation increases the likelihood of violence and aggression (perhaps because weapons can only be used for violence, so awareness of them primes violence as an appropriate situational response).

For instance, studies have been conducted. The subject is responsible for administering electric shock to a confederate (someone working with the experimenter) for as punishment for failure to learn something. Having a gun in the same room as the subject increases both the length of the shock and the voltage used.

So, an armed society is by definition a more aggressive and violent one. That's something to consider.

ya sure, we have seen what happens when only the cops and military have fire arms... yes Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, Communist China, Cambodia under the Camar Rouge ... yes again and again we have seen what happens when the populace is disarmed!

 

[celtic_crippler]

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his actions with his life." ~ Robert A Heinlein

 

[DennisBreene]

"An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his actions with his life." ~ Robert A Heinlein

It's a great quote and philosophically attractive. However, it's from a work of fiction and suffers from the constraints of fiction. The author controls the situation, the action and the outcome. Real life is a bit more messy. I'm also concerned about the continual use of the singular "society" in the discussion. We live in a country of multiple societies; all with differing variables. The outcome of arming a small rural town populated by a large percentage of people who are familiar with guns and each other may not equate to a very crowded suburban or urban population where factors may affect the general population differently. There is ample evidence in studies that an increasingly dense (per capita, not IQ) population is more prone to acting out in situations that increase irritability. Hence issues of road rage etc. We probably don't know enough about these variable populations to make wholesale judgments as to the effects of arming large groups of citizens. It is an interesting question.

 

[Sukerkin]

Very true, DB. It is also true that historically the mores and codes of conduct that we consider to be polite arose out of the fact that impolite people kept putting holes of one sort or another in each other.

It's a quote I have used many times when discussing weapon laws on these fora and, whilst I acknowledge the points that you make as being valid, it is still a concept that I philosophically support.

As you say, it is population density and anonymity that seems to cause a lot of our problems with violence in the so called First World countries - in the end it boils down to a general sensation of 'threat' because of crowding and a feeling of frustration at not being able to communicate properly when something annoys us - the posters here who have a favourable impression of my manner and mode of speech would be surprised at how irate I can get in traffic ..

 

[DennisBreene]

I've witnessed the traffic in parts of the UK. You have every right to your ire.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've witnessed the traffic in parts of the UK. You have every right to your ire.

I rather enjoy driving in the UK (excluding places like downtown London...). The M is pretty much the same as our interstate system, but the backroads are a ton of fun, and the scenery is some of the loveliest anywhere. And I will say that, on average, drivers in Europe seem more competent and nicer than those in the US.

While it's true that the quote about armed societies is from a work of fiction, there is at least some truth to it. While studies can show an increase in things like road rage, what they do not (and cannot) show is if this is actually caused by increased population densities, or a lack of consequences to the behaviour.

 

[celtic_crippler]

If History is any indicator, I'd have to say an armed society is preferable to the alternative.

 

[chinto]

If History is any indicator, I'd have to say an armed society is preferable to the alternative.

I agree, History Proves that armed sociaties are by their nature polite and peaceable. When you may have to back up your loud or nasty mouth with your life its self, you tend to be polite, this was true in the 900's and again in the 15 and 1600's (AD) and again in the 1890's and the 1920's. most men had a pocket pistol on them in the 1920's and would if provoked enough use it! true in Chicago or San Francisco at that time.. now that few are armed in most cities except the Criminals the thugs and Criminals are who set the tone. so vulgar slurs and impolite actions are tolerated. 80 years or so ago they would not have been.

 

[arnisador]

The Wild West? Armed samurai roaming Japan? Polite and peaceable?

 

[Blindside]

It seems to me that your Japanese example should be an example of a largely disarmed society living at the whims of the armed rulers (the 5% of society that represented the warrior class). And you are damned right it was generally polite in the interactions between members of the armed castes, with fairly elaborate rituals. Japan went through long periods of relative peace in international relations both internally and externally for a period of over 200 years during the Togukawa Shogunate.

 

[Blindside]

Oh, and the "Wild West" has a bit of an overblown reputation. Try reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Gunfighters-Highwaymen-Vigilantes-Violence-Frontier/dp/0520060261

 

[DennisBreene]

I rather enjoy driving in the UK (excluding places like downtown London...). The M is pretty much the same as our interstate system, but the backroads are a ton of fun, and the scenery is some of the loveliest anywhere. And I will say that, on average, drivers in Europe seem more competent and nicer than those in the US.

While it's true that the quote about armed societies is from a work of fiction, there is at least some truth to it. While studies can show an increase in things like road rage, what they do not (and cannot) show is if this is actually caused by increased population densities, or a lack of consequences to the behaviour.

Point taken. There are the oft quoted studies in Psych 101 referring to the increasing aggression in rat populations but I don't know if that in itself is adequate to extrapolate to human society (except possibly in houses of legislature). As to traffic. My forays into Scotland afforded some very nice walks down country roads to quite nice little communities. On the other hand a single car trip in Sigonella Sicilly was enough to cause PTSD. All in all not much differant from life in the US.

 

[DennisBreene]

Oh, and the "Wild West" has a bit of an overblown reputation. Try reading this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Gunfighters-Highwaymen-Vigilantes-Violence-Frontier/dp/0520060261

I will say this; my activity on this site has expanded my reading list at a pace that is challenging. I'll try to follow up on the reference. Thank you.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Point taken. There are the oft quoted studies in Psych 101 referring to the increasing aggression in rat populations but I don't know if that in itself is adequate to extrapolate to human society (except possibly in houses of legislature). As to traffic. My forays into Scotland afforded some very nice walks down country roads to quite nice little communities. On the other hand a single car trip in Sigonella Sicilly was enough to cause PTSD. All in all not much differant from life in the US.

While I am we'll aware of the physiological similarities between rats and humans, I think it is a rather large stretch to decide that there is much similarity between their psychologies. Rats (and, it could be argued, those politicians you mentioned) are not intelligent. I'd sooner grant the possibility of similarities between humans and dolphins.

Don't ever drive in Madrid. I'm just sayin...

 

[celtic_crippler]

It occurs to me that many get their ideas on history from Hollywood...