Does aikido use punches and kicks?

[windwalker099]

Does aikido use punches and kicks?

Yes it does, maybe not in the same way as other MA but as part of a larger strategy of movement..

THE
A R T O F
A I K I D O
Principles and Essential Techniques
KISSHOMARU UESHIBA

Execute a shomen strike with your front hand-sword, apply atemi with the fist of
your other hand while entering with your front foot, pivot on that foot, remaining
centered; and step in with a big sweep of the back hand-sword.

Some may find the reading interesting

An interesting art. My first contact it, with on the Island of Oahu HI....
while serving in the army, a friend of mine, a fellow G.I. who happened to be a "Shidoin (指導員)"
suggested a taiji teacher, in downtown Honolulu who might be able to help me
to understand a deeper depth of CMA.

 

[marvin8]

Found the article, and I admit I probably wrote a little overly “enthusiastically” in that my previous post about D.D and the weightlifting thing, anyway - here’s a quote and the link -

“his background in weight-lifting back in the US allowed him to become the first systematic weight trainer in judo’s main institution. He trained many then young Japanese judoka but his most famous “success story” was Isao Inokuma: Draeger’s instruction in weights helped him rise from 73 kg to 86 and climb the podium of the 1963 All-Japan Championships, the 1964 Olympics and the 1965 World Championships.”

Donn F. Draeger: The Pioneer | BUDO JAPAN - Ttraditional Japanese martial-arts

Yes, that was the Kodokan after 1956, Prior to that, Masahiko Kimura did weight training...

The Legend Masahiko Kimura's Amazing Training Routine

Masahiko Kimura)was a Japanese judoka who is widely considered one of the greatest judoka of all time. (5 ft 7in 170 cm; 85 kg, 187 lb) He was born on September 10, 1917 in Kumamoto, Japan. In submission grappling, the reverse ude-garami arm lock is often called the “Kimura”, due to his famous...

www.bjjee.com

 

[frank raud]

Yes, that was the Kodokan after 1956, Prior to that, Masahiko Kimura did weight training...

The Legend Masahiko Kimura's Amazing Training Routine

Masahiko Kimura)was a Japanese judoka who is widely considered one of the greatest judoka of all time. (5 ft 7in 170 cm; 85 kg, 187 lb) He was born on September 10, 1917 in Kumamoto, Japan. In submission grappling, the reverse ude-garami arm lock is often called the “Kimura”, due to his famous...

www.bjjee.com

Honest question, when did Kimura start weight training? Most descriptions of his training mention doing 1000 pushups a day, and uchikomi against a tree. The reason I ask is the film clip you show is from a NFB film from 1965, which is several years after Draeger published his book, and almost a decade after Draeger introduced serious weight training to the Kodokan.

 

[frank raud]

I would love to see that source. Obviously it wasn't Aikido yet, but I can understand Kano's desire for Judo to be so graceful. In reality it's not, until it is.

I've seen the same reference. But there is no question Kano encouraged some of his senior students to train with Ueshiba, including Kenji Tomiki, Minoru Mochizuchi and Yoshio Sugino.

 

[marvin8]

Honest question, when did Kimura start weight training? Most descriptions of his training mention doing 1000 pushups a day, and uchikomi against a tree.

... and "One-Arm Barbell Lift and Press- 15 Reps each side OR Bench Press- 3 Sets: 3, 2, and 1 Reps."

The reason I ask is the film clip you show is from a NFB film from 1965, which is several years after Draeger published his book, and almost a decade after Draeger introduced serious weight training to the Kodokan.

I am inferring from his autobiography that he was weight training around 1937 at age 20.

I won All Japan Championship in the fall of 1937... But now I am the champion, others would start to train 6 hours a day to beat me. I could not beat them as long as I trained as hard as others. If my opponents train twice as hard as others, then, I will train 3 times as hard as others, i.e, 9 hours a day. This way, I would gain extra 3 hours a day, and I will do this everyday.

 

[marvin8]

Honest question, when did Kimura start weight training? Most descriptions of his training mention doing 1000 pushups a day, and uchikomi against a tree. The reason I ask is the film clip you show is from a NFB film from 1965, which is several years after Draeger published his book, and almost a decade after Draeger introduced serious weight training to the Kodokan.

From Kimura himself in "Aikido and Judo – Interview with Gozo Shioda and Masahiko Kimura:"

Kimura: In my university days I would get up at 4:30 and clean, since I was one of the private students of Ushijima sensei (Translator’s Note: Tatsukuma Ushijima / 牛島辰熊, colloquially known as “Ogre Ushijima” and famous for his intense workouts), and then strike the makiwara from the left and right a thousand times each. You see, when you strike the makiwara you grip the thumb firmly, and when you strike the arms, elbows and wrists also become strong. Then I would go to the Police Department and train from around 10:00. For just about an hour. Then training at Takudai for about three hours, then at the Kodokan from 6:30 and from 8:00 to 11:00 at a local dojo in Fukagawa.

Interviewer: Was that the end of your training?

Kimura: No, after I went home and ate I would take a bath and then do solo training. First, a thousand push-ups, then body-building – six-hundred bench presses with 80 kg (175 lbs) barbells. Just that would take about an hour. Then uchikomi (打ち込み) against a maple tree a thousand times...

 

[frank raud]

From Kimura himself in "Aikido and Judo – Interview with Gozo Shioda and Masahiko Kimura:"

Kimura: In my university days I would get up at 4:30 and clean, since I was one of the private students of Ushijima sensei (Translator’s Note: Tatsukuma Ushijima / 牛島辰熊, colloquially known as “Ogre Ushijima” and famous for his intense workouts), and then strike the makiwara from the left and right a thousand times each. You see, when you strike the makiwara you grip the thumb firmly, and when you strike the arms, elbows and wrists also become strong. Then I would go to the Police Department and train from around 10:00. For just about an hour. Then training at Takudai for about three hours, then at the Kodokan from 6:30 and from 8:00 to 11:00 at a local dojo in Fukagawa.

Interviewer: Was that the end of your training?

Kimura: No, after I went home and ate I would take a bath and then do solo training. First, a thousand push-ups, then body-building – six-hundred bench presses with 80 kg (175 lbs) barbells. Just that would take about an hour. Then uchikomi (打ち込み) against a maple tree a thousand times...

Thank you.

 

[Same Trick]

Yes, that was the Kodokan after 1956, Prior to that, Masahiko Kimura did weight training...

The Legend Masahiko Kimura's Amazing Training Routine

Masahiko Kimura)was a Japanese judoka who is widely considered one of the greatest judoka of all time. (5 ft 7in 170 cm; 85 kg, 187 lb) He was born on September 10, 1917 in Kumamoto, Japan. In submission grappling, the reverse ude-garami arm lock is often called the “Kimura”, due to his famous...

www.bjjee.com

If I recal, Kimura was quite involved in training Gojuryu Karate, he together with Oyama(founder of Kyukushin karate) had same the same Karate teacher(not Yamagushi of Gojukai) and as it is in traditional Okinawan Gojuryu there’s a lot of “hojo-undo” equipment(“weight”) training.

Edit - yup, I found that one too

“Kimura also studied karate under Gichin Funakoshi for a couple of years, but eventually switched to training Goju-Ryu Karate under So-Nei Chu finally became an assistant instructor, along with Gogen Yamaguchi and Masutatsu Oyama, in his dojo. Interestingly, in his autobiography Kimura, attributes the use of the makiwara as taught to him by Nei-chu So and his friend and training partner Masutatsu Oyama, as being a significant contributor to his competitive judo success due to its strengthening effect on his hands. He began using the makiwara daily prior to his first All Japan success and never lost another competition bout.”


The Early Martial Arts Training of Mas Oyama - The Martial Way

 

[marvin8]

Daito ryu do a bit of live stuff.

Remy’s entry and timing appears against more realistic resistance, more practical, addresses some of the problems Rokas raises and follows some of the points I made. To enter Remy…

• push/pulls to lure opponent into moving in or collide.
• hand fights slowing the pace down.
• controls the space with moving guard and slips.
• chases the center.
• intercepts the opponent’s footwork.
• reacts sooner allowing more reaction time.
• trains as he fights.
• does not wait until opponent is overextended to follow.
• does not try to grab a punch.
• does not rely on unbalancing opponent.

I don't agree with everything but here's a Remy interview.

 

[windwalker099]

“Your body will develop muscle until you’re seventy. Once you build such a body, your body will not falter or deteriorate
even after you’re eighty. If you feel weak, or weakened, train harder. You will feel better and unless you do so your vitality will decrease, along with your capability to think.


I have 24 regimens to my training that I do everyday. On top of this I swing a Hexagonal Pole (A heavy pole for swinging) about 30,000 times a year. I have done this everyday without fail for the past 30, 40 years.”


“(On Clear Power) I do not use my shoulders at all when I use Clear Power.
(Having felt it directly, I can say that it feels like a concentrated laser point of
power that enters directly into me as a single line. On top of this, it is as if it
is extremely unobstructed, and indeed “clear” in nature. The author has
never felt anyone else feel this kind of delivery except from Sagawa himself)”

For those who are practitioners, is one method a prerequisite leading to the other ?

"aiki" (あいき) sounds a lot like what is called "jin" (劲) in CMA , thoughts?

 

[windwalker099]

Part of the question regarding training methods being discussed.
reflecting what seems to be two different approaches within the art.



“If you swing a bokuto a lot you will realize many things. That is the important part <of swinging the bokuto.> You will become able to do many other things”


“in your training. However that is only building of the body and no matter how much you do this, it will not allow you to be able to do
Aiki by simply pursuing these kinds of exercises.”

“<Aiki> is separate. You must FEEL as much as you can when you take my hand.
I learned much by being thrown by Takeda Soukaku and gained understanding about many different things
through this process. You must be this sharp! Spirit is extremely important when fighting. And to never tense up.”

 

[Sammy Naur]

And i wrote that he introduced (serious/modern?) weight lifting to judo in Japan

How come Donn Dreager’s not a reliable source ?

I still don't believe that Draeger introduced weight lifting to Japanese judo or otherwise. Maybe the first Westerner to be given such a credit/honor but come on. That sounds like something fabricated or exaggerated.

The Japanese built steel battleships way before Don Dreager. They cut down trees to make fortresses. They built ships. The idea that a Westerner was the one who taught Japanese judoka strength training just doesn't pass the sniff test. That's the whole "weak men of Asia" stereotype.

He's not a reliable source because, like a lot of martial arts authors, he tends to embellish his own contributions while also scooping up a lot of ahistorical material and passing it off as historical.

I don't mean this to knock Dreager but he's one of those authors that people tend to eat up, but not critically review. If it sounds good, people will just accept it.

 

[Same Trick]

I still don't believe that Draeger introduced weight lifting to Japanese judo or otherwise. Maybe the first Westerner to be given such a credit/honor but come on. That sounds like something fabricated or exaggerated.

The Japanese built steel battleships way before Don Dreager. They cut down trees to make fortresses. They built ships. The idea that a Westerner was the one who taught Japanese judoka strength training just doesn't pass the sniff test. That's the whole "weak men of Asia" stereotype.

He's not a reliable source because, like a lot of martial arts authors, he tends to embellish his own contributions while also scooping up a lot of ahistorical material and passing it off as historical.

I don't mean this to knock Dreager but he's one of those authors that people tend to eat up, but not critically review. If it sounds good, people will just accept it.

I myself have only read one of his books he co wrote with Robert Smith, but I have meet and trained for a couple of people that meet and spent time with him in Japan, they all acknowledge his expertise.

As for the weight training thing, there can be other sources as for example Karate and its introduction to mainland Japan, Okinawan karate especially gojuryu use weight training methods.. there’s the story of Chōmo Hanshiro and Kentsu Yabu both who were praised for their exceptional physique in their medical examination for the enlistment in the Japanese army could be an indication they had done training usually not a thing on mainland Japan.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I myself have only read one of his books he co wrote with Robert Smith, but I have meet and trained for a couple of people that meet and spent time with him in Japan, they all acknowledge his expertise.

As for the weight training thing, there can be other sources as for example Karate and its introduction to mainland Japan, Okinawan karate especially gojuryu use weight training methods.. there’s the story of Chōmo Hanshiro and Kentsu Yabu both who were praised for their exceptional physique in their medical examination for the enlistment in the Japanese army could be an indication they had done training usually not a thing on mainland Japan.

The idea that people outside Japan introduced weight training to the Japanese is zany.

Especially in an art like Judo, which really owes nothing to Europe. as if all the Japanese samurai and judoka were really small guys until we showed up.

The idea that they needed US military people to come over there and teach them properly is more likely some post WWII retcon. Donn Draeger probably did this honestly, but attempts to credit him for bring the art of "weight training" to the Japanese don't align with history.

Retroactive continuity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[isshinryuronin]

Okinawan karate especially gojuryu use weight training methods.. there’s the story of Chōmo Hanshiro and Kentsu Yabu both who were praised for their exceptional physique

A small clarification: These two guys were mostly trained in the shorinryu (Shuri) lineage, not goju (Naha lineage). Their excellent physical conditioning was representative of most early practitioners as karate regimen was intense, with or without weights. It appears hojo undo (old traditional training) with weights was brought back from China by the Naha based masters. Most of the exercises were quite different from modern weight training, being designed specifically for strengthening MA technique.

 

[Same Trick]

The idea that people outside Japan introduced weight training to the Japanese is zany.

Especially in an art like Judo, which really owes nothing to Europe. as if all the Japanese samurai and judoka were really small guys until we showed up.

The idea that they needed US military people to come over there and teach them properly is more likely some post WWII retcon. Donn Draeger probably did this honestly, but attempts to credit him for bring the art of "weight training" to the Japanese don't align with history.

Retroactive continuity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I think you look at it one sided, many nations have incorporated aspects of martial arts such as Judo/jujutsu/aikido and Karate into their law enforcement and military units.
Kano himself had great interest in foreign affairs, the Japanese Judo and the west might be more of an mutual interest affair saga.

Expanding on this weight training musings - In Japanese Ken- jutsu, some/many ? Schools do suburi practice with heavy wooden club like bokken, I’ll guess many of the early judokas also cross trained in kendo and similar so then were adapt in that kind of weigh training, barbells and such with its specific training methodology might/probably have been introduced “more recently”

 

[Same Trick]

A small clarification: These two guys were mostly trained in the shorinryu (Shuri) lineage, not goju (Naha lineage). Their excellent physical conditioning was representative of most early practitioners as karate regimen was intense, with or without weights. It appears hojo undo (old traditional training) with weights was brought back from China by the Naha based masters. Most of the exercises were quite different from modern weight training, being designed specifically for strengthening MA technique.

Yes those two were of same linage as Funakoshi, there are old pictures of Funakoshi with equipment such as the chi-chi(similar to “Indian/ipersian” club), although in the pictures he’s not seemingly holding on as working out with the chi-chi but just posing beside them in them