MartialIntent said:
Patrick, to have had suggested to you that something's been "done to death" in an open forum is akin to inviting oneself to speak and then subsequently inviting everyone else to shut up!
I am sorry you assumed that is what I was saying but with all due respect you are entirely wrong. I said what I felt and that was it. I was not inviting, saying or even remotely suggesting that anyone "shut up!"
MartialIntent said:
I think in many respects a lot of MA places now are nothing but extensions of the jingoistic "work hard, play hard" nonsense mentality that a lot of us are force-fed in our 9-5s. I genuinely wish you luck in your search for a dojo providing students with some philosophical background to the physical techniques though I fear it might potentially be a fruitless endeavor. I'd certainly be interested to know if you *do* find a match for your search criteria though!
Once again with all due respect but that statement is mildly insulting don't you think?
MartialIntent said:
I think in light of the notion that most folk just wanna "train hard", the scope for spirituality and philosophy within the training framework can be, at best limited. I'd say it was limited by both the framework itself and the reluctance of many instructors to take up any kind of spiritial / philosophical mantle for whatever personal [or financially constrained] reasons they may have. That's fair enough, you pays your money and takes your choice, but the problem for me is that many of these same places will indeed have explicit mention of their philosophical aspect but never actually follow through on it - for me it's nothing but a vote catcher to assist in satisfying the monthly figures. Just an opinion though!
Personally yeah I'd like to see more at places of study, at least in terms of pointing students in the appropriate general direction - especially as beginning students often have no clear direction with regard to the spiritual aspect of the art - having said that there should be absolutely no requirement nor coercion in any form.
It's somewhat easier for me myself to link the core philosophical tenets to the techniques in general as a practitioner of Aikido but I certainly appreciate that this isn't always the case for other arts where the spiritual sides are often more implicit than explicit. But I'd try to set some time aside to put across the philosophical nature of the art outside of time spent training techniques if students have shown an interest in that other side of things.
Good luck and respects!
Didn't we have this discussion before or is it just the fact that it sounds incredibly familiar to another I had on MT. And I have no desire to get into this again, but since my statements were misinterpreted here I go..again.
But before I do if you had bothered to read my 2nd post you would also see that I did let Hapki know that there would be others that would be more receptive with a better outlook on the subject than I. I admitted I was probably not the best person to have this discussion with and I certainly did not mean for him to quit asking.
Form my personal experience it is the pursuit of spirituality in the MA school that is killing the true essence of many martial arts. It is doing a bang up job on Yang style Tai Chi, working on Bagua, hitting Aikido and soon to hit Chen style too. But If you read Ueshiba, Aikido is fairly spirituality based to begin with. And this seach for spirituality comes from a general misunderstanding of what makes up the art in the first place. To be spiritual for a moment, the teacher just opens the door, it is up to the student to take it from there.
If you want spirituality that is great, I am all for it. But the problem occurs when many who pursue it in a Dojo, kwoon or whatever you call it tend to do it at the expense of those who don't. They want to tie up precious class time discussing what Lao Tzu meant by “the usefulness of a thing is in it's emptiness” and how does that apply here, or what exactly did Confucius mean when he said "a gentleman must be careful in speech and quick to act" or asking about Buddha, Zen, and Shinto. But is does not nor will it stop there it will degrade into discussions about Qi in ways that are so off the mark it is plain ridiculous. And then the new age spirituality hits and that is when many MA classes go right off the edge.
I lost a very very good Tai Chi Sifu to this, he gave in to the spirituality seekers and the new age spirituallity people and if that is what you want to pursue than great, like I said I am all for it, but in my experience the majority of people that bring this into an MA school seek to control the class and change it to their needs at the expense of all others that are there or others that would have come later.
I also know of another teacher that is a Taoist and will not teach anyone that is not serious about the Martial arts or Qigong he is teaching. You go there and start trying to discuss spirituality you not only miss out on what it great teaching from a great teacher you will probably be asked to leave. To him Taoism is part of Tai Chi, part of Bagua, Part of Xingyi, part of Qigong, it is not a separate subject to be discussed. You gain understanding from the training.
Spirituallity is an intrinsic part of many martial arts IF you actually study the art. It is not up to the teacher to hold a philosophy class, if you want the spirituality read book, take a course, go to church.
When I use to teach Tai Chi I told my students about applicable books if they so desired to learn more, generally I figured that one out by them asking me. I have read many of these books myself. But if the class is 1 hour long, more or less, it is to be used to teach the martial art the student are there to learn. Not a pseudo religious/spirituality class. There is simply not enough time
I have never asked any of my teacher’s religious of spirituality questions beyond Taoist of Buddhist breathing (which I mixed up in another post..sorry about that). I have had some discussions with my teachers about Taoism, but it is when they brought it up or were asking me to help explain something they were asked.
I honestly wish Hapki luck in his quest, but I still do not feel it is something that should be expected in an MA class. A martial arts teacher is just that, a martial arts teacher, not a religious Guru.
