Do you teach (or study) gun disarms?

[Carol]

Some time ago, a person posted a video highlights on Facebook of a test performed at his school. It didn't look like a big class, mostly young people, probably a group that meets at a YMCA or someplace similar. But the students looked solid and the video overall seemed well-received.

Another instructor saw the video and made some very favorable comments, even stating that he'd like to see his advanced (children's) class do some of the things the students in the video were doing...except the gun disarms. "I wouldn't have my 12 year olds do a gun disarm".

That got me thinking -- do you teach gun disarms? (If you do not teach -- does your system include gun disarms?)

If not, do you know why not?

If so, at what age do you introduce the material?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

In IRT we do gun disarms Carol. Everything from handgun to shotgun to rifle. Everyone likes to train when the blue training guns come out especially when it is an M4 or an AK47. Having said that firearm disarms can be very effective in the right circumstances but also you have to understand they are extremely risky as well. If I thought I could give them my wallet and keys and survive I would do it every time. I would rather just run most of the time as well but some times you may have no choice and having it in your toolbox would be very good then.

I would not teach them to kid's as I think they just are typically not mature enough to understand all their options and all the ramifications.



Small plug here as we have a dvd titled IRT Mt. Charleston Intensive 2013 on this topic at our store: IRT Store

Here is a promo video the first half has a few firearm disarms:

 

[Badger1777]

A friend of mine, Taiwanese but training (and teaching) in England, bought BB pistols to teach gun disarms. I was taught a number of gun disarm technique at a fairly junior level (when I used to train years ago before leaving it alone for too long). They involved ripping someone's trigger finger off when they held a hand gun, and hitting someone in the guts with their own gun and then turning it on them when they held a rifle or shotgun.

The thing about martial arts is that your opponent will seldom be a martial artist. He will not behave according to the rules of any club, so any club that only teaches how to defend against what you learn in club is nothing more than fitness training.

 

[Argus]

In much the same way that I believe any tactical shooter or CCW holder should know some fundamental hand to hand skills, I think that any martial artists considering gun disarms would be well advised to have some prior firearms training and experience.

 

[K-man]

In IRT we do gun disarms Carol. Everything from handgun to shotgun to rifle. Everyone likes to train when the blue training guns come out especially when it is an M4 or an AK47. Having said that firearm disarms can be very effective in the right circumstances but also you have to understand they are extremely risky as well. If I thought I could give them my wallet and keys and survive I would do it every time. I would rather just run most of the time as well but some times you may have no choice and having it in your toolbox would be very good then.

I would not teach them to kid's as I think they just are typically not mature enough to understand all their options and all the ramifications.



Small plug here as we have a dvd titled IRT Mt. Charleston Intensive 2013 on this topic at our store: IRT Store

Here is a promo video the first half has a few firearm disarms:

I teach weapon disarms in both my Karate and Krav classes. Some are similar to those Brian is showing here, some are slightly different. We train from all directions and also where your attacker is also holding you with his free hand. As to age ... I don't teach kids any more so basically I teach from about 16 up.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

K-Man, do you teach to disarm than use the firearm?

 

[Buka]

We used to have the firearm instructor from Boston PD come to the dojo and teach a handgun safety course for any of the advanced students wishing to train in disarms. It was a two day course, couple hours each day. Then we'd arrange range time with the instructor and his assistants. If a student was under 21 a parent would have to attend along with him. At the range (outdoors) they would teach range safety, basic target shooting skills, weapons draw, as well as a breakdown of all the weapons used. A lot of the guys had firearm permits so they'd all bring multiple firearms. The students would use all of them, learn to break them down and clean them as well. The course was free, but the students had to pay for ammo. Then, and only then, would we start handgun disarm training with them.

We would key on blading the body during the disarms. We'd practice as many ways and scenarios as we could think of. We were fortunate that we had access to the things we did. I taught disarms in federal law enforcement for twenty five years. As well as handgun retention, which I actually think is more difficult. (both are as serious as a heart attack) Back when I first learned hand gun retention in police work (70s) it was really poor. It has improved tremendously since then, nation wide. But I think it comes down to who's teaching.

Serious business, this stuff. Maybe the most serious in the Arts. I don't teach weapons disarms any more. I leave it to the other guys, who I originally taught. But to me, handgun disarms are way easier than knife disarms. I won't even teach them anymore. I leave it to my knife fighting instructors.

 

[K-man]

K-Man, do you teach to disarm than use the firearm?

Basically just the disarm. However once again it depends on the situation. One of my guys is ex-police and has much more knowledge of the different types of firearms than I have. Occasionally he will give some insights.

I basically teach to control the weapon, destroy the attacker, take the weapon and get away. Sometimes with the handgun the sequence is a bit different. If you know how to use the weapon you have taken then fine, you may be able to utilise the weapon but if, for example, you have taken a pistol that has the safety on, you might get a nasty surprise if you try to use it to defend yourself if you are unfamiliar with that particular weapon. There are so many weapons available, that are illegal for us to own, that it is impossible to try and teach what to do with an unfamiliar weapon.

Down the track I want to do some more firearm stuff with my Krav but I have to go OS for that.
:asian:

 

[Blindside]

We had a couple pistol disarms in Kenpo, they were OK.

In Kali we work weapon counters, including pistols all the time. I haven't spent any time on long guns, perhaps a weakness, but quite frankly long gun crime rates are really really miniscule. It makes sense for LEO or military members, but for my largely civilian group, it isn't a focus. I would also say that we don't focus on "disarms," if a disarm happens that is great, but it usually happens after you have hurt and distracted the other guy, so we focus on weapon control and hurting the other guy first.

 

[WaterGal]

We do, in Hapkido, but not until 2nd Dan, and we don't really let kids under 10 do Hapkido unless it's with a parent. So I don't think we'll have 12-year olds learning gun disarms.

We also do gun disarms with very much an awareness that these are risky last-resort measures, and you shouldn't try them unless the other guy is trying to actually kill you rather than just take your wallet.

 

[KydeX]

We also do gun disarms with very much an awareness that these are risky last-resort measures, and you shouldn't try them unless the other guy is trying to actually kill you rather than just take your wallet.

This is the usual way of looking at this. But it can be difficult to know sometimes what the intention of the attacker is. And in some cases the mugger could have the opinion that it is easier to shoot you first and then take your wallet. Then again, if that's the case you probably won't see it coming anyway.

But that was a sidetrack. Yes, we have gun disarms together with all kinds of other weapon disarms. Like many others here have said, we to try to control the attacker and the weapon first. If we can take it away safely, it's a bonus.

 

[arnisador]

I'm not a big fan of teaching the specific locks one often sees for firearm defense, but I do discuss some general principles of distraction, what a trained vs. untrained person will do with a firearm, etc.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I've studied gun defenses and some of them can be quite effective at close range. From what I've learned, if an attacker with a gun is far away, out of arms reach, it is best to cooperate and give him what he wants but if he is close enough that you can grab his weapon arm than you can effectively neutralize him if you're good enough although you do have to be careful about stray shots hitting innocent bystanders. Guns are mostly distance weapons, they become less effective up close where a skilled person can grab them.

 

[Argus]

I've studied gun defenses and some of them can be quite effective at close range. From what I've learned, if an attacker with a gun is far away, out of arms reach, it is best to cooperate and give him what he wants but if he is close enough that you can grab his weapon arm than you can effectively neutralize him if you're good enough although you do have to be careful about stray shots hitting innocent bystanders. Guns are mostly distance weapons, they become less effective up close where a skilled person can grab them.

Just be aware, it's quite easy to pull the weapon back to a safe retention position and keep an opponent at bay with the off hand. That hand you're trying to grab can be a tricky bugger. Not saying that your average guy on the street will have that kind of training, but even the average person is sufficiently resourceful and clever to warrant awareness of this kind of thing.

 

[Chris Parker]

Some time ago, a person posted a video highlights on Facebook of a test performed at his school. It didn't look like a big class, mostly young people, probably a group that meets at a YMCA or someplace similar. But the students looked solid and the video overall seemed well-received.

Another instructor saw the video and made some very favorable comments, even stating that he'd like to see his advanced (children's) class do some of the things the students in the video were doing...except the gun disarms. "I wouldn't have my 12 year olds do a gun disarm".

That got me thinking -- do you teach gun disarms? (If you do not teach -- does your system include gun disarms?)

If not, do you know why not?

If so, at what age do you introduce the material?

Yes, I teach them. Not particularly often, though, maybe once every few years or so, if that.

I only teach adults, so no concerns about age requirements.

 

[TSD Bean]

We taught gun defense pretty frequently at our school, maybe once or twice a month. However, we also made sure to teach a proper mindset about gun defense as well. The skills were taught under the explicit pretense of do or die scenarios. Since standing up to a firearm is itself an exceptionally dangerous thing to do, the lessons always began with the explanation that, unless they are clearly going to harm you or someone else if you do not take action, it is infinitely wiser not to confront them. If you are being mugged and all they want is your wallet, you put yourself and anyone you're with in way more danger by trying to take the gun away.

The skill is useful and can safe lives, but taking on undo risks isn't always the wise call.

As far as teaching it to kids, I'd say that giving them the tool of a gun disarm under this pretext is a good call. You have provided them with a tool, so they have something in their mind that tells them they know how to handle the situation. That alone can help them keep a level head in a dangerous situation. By making sure you have taught them when to use it and when to simply cooperate, you also increase their ability to judge the situation. Giving someone the tool and teaching them how to use it properly is an important part of being an instructor.

 

[Argus]

One thing that I don't generally hear people talk about, but wonder about to myself:

It's really not easy to shoot a handgun.

If you've ever had training, or, especially, if you haven't had training, and you've tried, you'll quickly realize just how difficult it is to hit anything without sufficient training and practice. So, I do wonder if, against the average guy on the street, the best defense in many scenarios might simply be running in the other direction.

 

[TSD Bean]

One thing that I don't generally hear people talk about, but wonder about to myself:

It's really not easy to shoot a handgun.

If you've ever had training, or, especially, if you haven't had training, and you've tried, you'll quickly realize just how difficult it is to hit anything without sufficient training and practice. So, I do wonder if, against the average guy on the street, the best defense in many scenarios might simply be running in the other direction.

This is absolutely correct. Even with training, hitting something (or someone) at anything over 50 feet with a handgun is not a simple thing. Aiming is very hard with such a short barrel, and a deviation of even a single degree can add feet left or right or the target. And a moving target?

That said, disarming requires you to be in arms reach. If you're already there, the odds of them hitting you is pretty good. That's part of why I mentioned teaching someone to judge the situation. Point blank, unless you know for a fact that they will shoot you, or suspect they will even if you cooperate with them, cooperating is the easiest way to get out of the situation unharmed.

 

[Buka]

One thing that I don't generally hear people talk about, but wonder about to myself:

It's really not easy to shoot a handgun.

If you've ever had training, or, especially, if you haven't had training, and you've tried, you'll quickly realize just how difficult it is to hit anything without sufficient training and practice. So, I do wonder if, against the average guy on the street, the best defense in many scenarios might simply be running in the other direction.

From an old movie. Serpentine!

 

[Balrog]

We teach firearm disarming to students over the age of 13. It's a great eye-opener to controlling the reactionary gap and for them to learn that 6-15 feet is the worst possible zone to be in. And of course, it's a great opportunity for us to emphasize post-encounter defense; what to do when the cops arrive. This is based on Massad Ayoob's excellent suggestions on what to do after a shooting encounter, but we have adapted it to any self-defense encounter:

1. Call 911. Others might call as well, but *you* need to be recorded on that tape, clearly identifying yourself as the victim.
2. When the police arrive, follow every one of their orders. If you are holding a weapon, immediately set it down (away from your attacker) and show them your empty hands.
3. They may handcuff you for their own protection while they secure the scene. Do NOT resist.
4. Officer this person attacked me, I will sign the complaint,
5. Officer here is the evidence (knife, gun, ball bat, whatever).
6. Officer these are the witnesses.
7. Officer you will have my full cooperation in 24 hrs after I see my attorney.