Do You Study ____ -ryu karate?

[isshinryuronin]

This started as part of my post #90 in the thread "Training in Multiple Dojos," but I took it out as it was already too long. In that thread I brought up "continuity" and will expand on that here. We are familiar with many karate styles: isshin-ryu, goju-ryu, shorin-ryu, chito-ryu, wado-ryu, uechi-ryu and others. That's a lot of "ryu's!" But what does ryu mean?

Looking at the kanji for ryu it can be seen that the bottom portion contains the element of "river" (vertical lines). If you have a patch or certificate with your style's name in Japanese, you can see it. The literal definition of the entire ryu kanji can be defined as "flow." A river flows and transports its waters downstream over time. Is ryu just a cool word to mean "style" or did the old masters have something in mind? Of what relevance is this to TMA? Does it have any effect on the way you view your art?

 

[_Simon_]

Yeah when I discovered that ryu was more akin to "flow" or "stream" like a river... it really opened something up to me.

Not some rigid dead structure... but something flowing, living, and constantly moving. And how downstreams often have forks that separate the water, they flow naturally and unimpeded. I often see many stark traditionalists say "oh if only karate were unified and became one, and back to how it was", well.... I don't see it that way. I see the different "streams" and styles as simply a natural evolution and expression of different principles and emphases. Each style is a beautiful manifestation, and whilst having its roots in karate of old, has been passed down a different stream.

And it really helped me to appreciate and honour all the different styles and what they're all about. Karate is along a spectrum, each having a different focus or emphasis (same with all martial arts really), they don't have to contain every single element of every martial art.

Just like how the simple flower, how many natural permutations and variations there are... None are more flower-like than the others huh? I very much see the different ryu like this . As a living stream that we draw from and explore.

(Thank you also for bringing up wonderful topics to explore. I feel we would have lots to talk about haha)

 

[isshinryuronin]

I see the different "streams" and styles as simply a natural evolution and expression of different principles and emphases. Each style is a beautiful manifestation, and whilst having its roots in karate of old, has been passed down a different stream.

I appreciate what you're saying and there is truth and insight to it. But to be technically correct (and a bit of a-hole, just for fun ) this geographic scenario is backwards. I had a class in Fluvial Physiography, the study of landforms made by flowing water, and I assure you that a river is composed of streams combining, not separating into different ones. But then, again, if you're travelling upstream and there's a tidal surge, your example is fully correct.

(The exception is when the river ends in flat terrain it breaks up into many short rivulets and forms a delta. But that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. My apologies. To continue...)

This offers a whole different look at interpretation. If you take the many different stream branches, they combine into one river and all flow into the same ocean (the void?). We can ponder the philosophical ramifications on TMA this can lead to as well.

So, whether travelling upstream where the one becomes many, or downstream where the many become one, the river flows and its waters have been "passed down." Of course, in modern times, we have sometimes disturbed this natural flow by building dams to manipulate it to our liking.

But while such change can have benefit like electrical production, it also causes some areas to flood and others to become dry, affecting vegetation and wildlife (also had classes in these subjects) and their "way" (do) . So, changes to flow, changes to the ryu have to be carefully considered less its natural beauty and value become diminished.

Well, this river ran deeper than I expected. It did give me the chance to use 4 emojis in a single post! I know it seems like I smoked some whacky tobacky before posting, but perhaps it provided some entertainment and things to think about. If not, just chalk it up to me getting senile.

 

[_Simon_]

Hahaha 4 emojis noted!

Yes I do like that take on things too . I guess I mean just the phenomenon of water separating into different divots and pathways (not necessarily ones leading to the ocean, I am no good with water body designations too!), but that is very interesting, understand what you mean and can appreciate that perspective . I still feel like it's just a part of general evolution, nothing stays the same. Like ryu is the passing on of a tradition. It's the same water, but as it travels it's constantly changing in formation, picking stuff up along the way, gaining velocity and flowing different direction naturally... even though the same essence.

I like metaphors too water is too easy!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

many karate styles: isshin-ryu, goju-ryu, shorin-ryu, chito-ryu, wado-ryu, uechi-ryu and others. That's a lot of "ryu's!" But what does ryu mean?

In another thread, I said, "When you train a front kick (or an upward block), do you care which MA style that you are training?"

- Can a isshin-ryu guy do the front kick (or upward block) any differently from a goju-ryu guy does?
- What could be the difference?
- If there is no difference then what does that mean?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Can a isshin-ryu guy do the front kick (or upward block) any differently from a goju-ryu guy does?
- What could be the difference?
- If there is no difference then what does that mean?

Front kicks are much the same, but in the case of upward blocks isshinryu is a little unique. We angle the block outward a little more and strike with the muscled part of the arm rather than the boney part. That is part of our "ryu."

But in general, most of the Okinawan styles are much the same. The place is small and there was much cross-pollination. The concept of different named "styles" didn't really emerge till around early 1930's. A little earlier than that, names weren't even given to the techniques. It was just, "block a head punch like this..." or kick him in the nuts like this..." and the master would demonstrate for his disciple. Nothing was written down. I think it was the introduction of karate into the schools and the teaching of larger groups that required things to have names and labels. Certainly, Japanese culture demanded it.

Just as all rivers are similar in the basic principles like being wet, flowing to lower elevations, erosion and transporting sediment, width affecting velocity, etc., all ryu are similar in the basic principles. Like regional accents, the grammar and vocabulary are mostly the same, just differing in pronunciation and slang, and perhaps phrasing. But it's still the same language that can be understood by all. That's why switching from one Okinawan style to another is often not that hard once karate is understood.

 

[Fungus]

that a river is composed of streams combining, not separating into different ones.

My association of the ryu - style vs river is that "river" is dynamical and "style" static descriptor to the approach to MA.

Traditional styles may seem rigid, but for the karatea it is still a dynamic personal journey. So the different "rivers" flowing to the ultimatey truth of MA?

In kyokushin dojo kun we have the last part

The kyokushin "river":

"All our lives, through the discipline of Karate, we will seek to fulfill the true meaning of the Kyokushin Way”

As I interpret that it means we should never stop seeking and improving our understanding of the ultimate MA truth, and this is all dynamical in spirit, its not about the goal but about the attitude.

So even one style is something alive, had Oyama been alive today I am sure he would keep tweaking things along his journey. I imagine that each style is like a "river" flowing towards the ultimate truth, but they come from different sources?

 

[Fungus]

As long as one is doing kihon and kata, I think of the small differences just as a matter of superficial variation of tradition, there are just different ways to do it and they may all work.

But once one gets into applications and kumite, one can understand the reason for some differences, and how they relate to the attitude towards MA. To take one example, in TKD, there is alot of jumping (loss of rooting), the advantage is that is can help speed when kicking, but in kyokushin we often fight not but attacking and retracting, but we KEEP the pressure on the opponent, and rarely back down. So anything loosing rooting or contact with ground are easily swept or take down by leg kicks. (legs kicks a are not allwoed in TKD kumite I think, so there you go) I see this as one signature of kyokushing, that we like to keep the pressure in the fight, and this requires some some modifications to keep good balance (don't bound excessivly as it gives you vulnerable airtime). This pressure philosophy also means we spend more time conditioning, but the phillosophy isn't to avoid getting hit and then attack (as in in-out point fighting) it's more that you "trade"... but a good trade is that I bait my opponent into allowing to get a weak strike, while I counter with a much harder strike. This philosophy influences some foot work I think, in shotokan the circle the feet in some ido geiko, in kyoskuing we move in straight lines, I think it is to keep a broad base and stability. That makes sense onece you understand the kyokushing fighting spirit and ideas.

But if one looks likes at one technique in isolated from context, it is hard to see exactly why one would do it one way or the other.

I like the idea of having a "philosophy" to the fighting strategy, that helps understand all the rest of the details. This philosophy of the MA system and approach to combat or self defence (not talking about sports! I dont like sports myself), is something that I personally thinkg is very important and interests med alot.

 

[_Simon_]

So even one style is something alive, had Oyama been alive today I am sure he would keep tweaking things along his journey. I imagine that each style is like a "river" flowing towards the ultimate truth, but they come from different sources?

Well said, osu!

And it was said that prior to Sosai's passing, he actually said that there would be a regenesis of Kyokushin, as in a new development or evolution. Shihan Cameron Quinn talks about it in an interview, very fascinating! He thinks it was a bringing back of non-sport/knockdown stuff, but no one really knows!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Front kicks are much the same, but in the case of upward blocks isshinryu is a little unique. We angle the block outward a little more and strike with the muscled part of the arm rather than the boney part. That is part of our "ryu."

But in general, most of the Okinawan styles are much the same. The place is small and there was much cross-pollination. The concept of different named "styles" didn't really emerge till around early 1930's. A little earlier than that, names weren't even given to the techniques. It was just, "block a head punch like this..." or kick him in the nuts like this..." and the master would demonstrate for his disciple. Nothing was written down. I think it was the introduction of karate into the schools and the teaching of larger groups that required things to have names and labels. Certainly, Japanese culture demanded it.

Just as all rivers are similar in the basic principles like being wet, flowing to lower elevations, erosion and transporting sediment, width affecting velocity, etc., all ryu are similar in the basic principles. Like regional accents, the grammar and vocabulary are mostly the same, just differing in pronunciation and slang, and perhaps phrasing. But it's still the same language that can be understood by all. That's why switching from one Okinawan style to another is often not that hard once karate is understood.

I've seen differences in kata also explained by a famous first-gen Isshinryu karateka (Okinawan gent) as "old guy do, young guy do." In other words, things change in terms of body mechanics and power generation as we age. Young guy strikes this way, old guy strikes that way. Both acceptable, both effective.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think to truly understand why/how ryu came to be used in so many styles, we'd need a native japanese speaker/someone who grew up in japanese language/culture, and who either was around close enough to when these styles were founded, or had an interest in japanese martial culture itself. Only person I can think of who'd fit that bill here is @Hyoho, tagging so he sees.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I like the idea of having a "philosophy" to the fighting strategy, that helps understand all the rest of the details.

Great explanation that gets to the core! Not only true, but stresses that karate's root is fighting and everything else grew up around that. The masters of the mid 1900's wrote things like, "In kata, there are no dramatic poses." So, when there is a move one doesn't quite understand, we don't need to make up some fanciful explanation; one needs only to ask, "How could this directly be used in combat?"

The choice of techniques, targets, fighting range, angles, amount of grappling, power level, stance, etc. are all affected by a style's fighting doctrine. These elements are all synergistic and harmonize with each other. (Therefore, if you change one, other elements must be changed to remain effective and support each other.) This also affects a style's historical choice of kata and how they express them.

Should note that an individual's fighting philosophy can be overlaid upon the style's basic doctrine. After all, it's not the style that's in combat - it's the individual and he must make adjustments to fit his physical and personality traits.

not talking about sports!

I was going to mention this, but then remembered you already did. The rule structure determines the fighting philosophy/doctrine to a large degree.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

(not talking about sports! I dont like sports myself),

Even there are rules in challenge fight too.

I have been challenged as:

- punching only, no kicking.
- kicking/punching only, no takedown.
- wrestling only. No kicking/punching.
- Taiji push hand only (I told that guy I don't push).
- everything is allowed.
- ...

 

[Hot Lunch]

Looking at the kanji for ryu it can be seen that the bottom portion contains the element of "river" (vertical lines). If you have a patch or certificate with your style's name in Japanese, you can see it. The literal definition of the entire ryu kanji can be defined as "flow." A river flows and transports its waters downstream over time. Is ryu just a cool word to mean "style" or did the old masters have something in mind? Of what relevance is this to TMA? Does it have any effect on the way you view your art?

Personally, I try to avoid making sense of kanji by trying to find pictures of things in them. I imagine that any attempt at a conversion with a Japanese person on this subject would make me instantly regret it.

What I do know is this: although Shorin-ryu predated its name, Chosin Chibana gave it its name in 1929 - making it the first style with a "-ryu" name. If the others merely followed that lead, then Chosin Chibana should be the point of focus here when trying to determine intent.

Does "-ryu" also apply to things outside of martial arts? If so, does its use in that manner predate its use in martial arts? If the answer to both is "yes," I wouldn't think too deeply on this.

When looking up that kanji, the primary definition is definitely "flow," however... there are other definitions listed, in particular those that are more relevant to how we understand the term in martial arts.

I don't know enough about Japanese to say whether or not these other definitions have to be tied to "flow."

 

[O'Malley]

I suspect it would be interesting to hear @Chris Parker's take on the original meaning of "ryu".

In the meantime, here is some food for thought:

Now there's nothing inherently wrong with a wide variety of approaches to martial arts. Each of us begins our training for our own reasons, and we look for an art or teacher that can satisfy those needs as we understand them at that time--or at least that's what we ought to do. Some are looking for an activity to share with a friend, others for exercise; some are into competition, while some folks are looking to learn to fight, and others are looking a spiritual path. I'd argue that one of the major limitations of the McDojo mass-market approach is that it can fill only a limited range of needs and that, as a student's level and commitment grows, there comes a point where the franchise gym/school simply has no more to offer. The reasons we train most definitely do evolve, and it is a very rare teacher of a strong and comprehensive system that has the depth and breadth to encompass a student's entire training career. For example, when I started aikido, it was to learn a little self-defense and to share an activity with a boyfriend. Later, as I was not particularly talented or psychologically prepared, it was because it was the most difficult thing I had ever tried to do. After five years I realized that there weren't teachers in my immediate area who could guide me further, so I headed off to Japan. There, my reasons for doing budo continued to evolve and change, and I sought and found the arts and teachers that I needed.
- Diane Skoss, The Meaning of the Martial Arts: Some Reflections Along the Way

 

[isshinryuronin]

When looking up that kanji, the primary definition is definitely "flow," however... there are other definitions listed, in particular those that are more relevant to how we understand the term in martial arts.

Such as___? Wouldn't it have been relevant to list these other definitions? Odd you didn't since this is the entire premise for your post.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Such as___? Wouldn't it have been relevant to list these other definitions? Odd you didn't since this is the entire premise for your post.

...I thought we already had a general idea of what they were prior to seeing this thread? Such as "method," "style," "school," etc.

 

[Hot Lunch]

...since this is the entire premise for your post.

In case you think I'm trying to detract, I'm not.

I know that in English, the words "true" and "truth" are offshoots of word "tree" - and this predates English in other Germanic languages. In Romance languages, the words for "true" and "truth" (and related English words, such as "verify") are offshoots of the Latin word for "green."

I don't know how various Indo-European groups related truth to plant life, but apparently they did and this gives some insight as to how their culture may have been.

So if there's a connection between how we generally understand "ryu" (style, etc) and something "flowing" in ways we may not understand until it's explained to us, I'm listening. That's pretty much what I was saying my last sentence.

 

[Hyoho]

I think to truly understand why/how ryu came to be used in so many styles, we'd need a native japanese speaker/someone who grew up in japanese language/culture, and who either was around close enough to when these styles were founded, or had an interest in japanese martial culture itself. Only person I can think of who'd fit that bill here is @Hyoho, tagging so he sees.

Well I don't see kata an individual entity in practicing and teaching classical koryu and more modern MA. Without a doubt "repetition culture" is the foundation of almost anything Japanese. So we see ourselves in koryu even breaking down supposed, tried and tested waza into kata. To examine that technique in part and work on it towards more perfection. Then finally put it together again. We observe a "waza" then break it down. The we have henkawaza. (変化技). A variation or change in the original waza. In actual fact my ryu as mongai fushutsu (stays within the gate) only allows henka waza for demonstrations. This means I should go into the dojo, break down the waza into kata and work on something before demonstrations. Then there are of course totally made up kata in more modern arts. Even bastardized forms of a ryu's waza such as ZNKR Seitei Iaido. Not saying anything is wrong, It's an excellent way to learn fundamentals new or old.