Do you personally punch harder with bent arms compared to extended?

[windwalker099]

My understanding is that this is the only way to show how energy is moving in CMA. In fighting application that same movement would be much smaller. There's a saying that I used to always hear. "Train big so that you can use small." So in training everything is big motion but in fighting that same motion becomes smaller.

Our understanding might be different

Was told by my teacher, "make the mind big, the movement small"
Reflects a different way of approaching things.

Good discussion, highlighting, different thoughts and methods.

Lots of talk about what are called 6 harmonies
It might help to illustrate what some mean when they talk about them.
I have a feeling we might be talking about the same things, but not in the same way..
Reading the posts, it doesn't seem to be the same to me..

6 harmonies something I never heard of until meeting my teacher
our group in China. Referred it as 3 outer, 3 inner combined

seems different? maybe not ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Was told by my teacher, "make the mind big, the movement small"

This is the same thing. It may not seem the same thing but it is. In Jow Ga we train big and then that movement becomes small. But in application the movement is based on a big movement which we then compress. Even when I do small movement, that movement seems big to me in my mind, but sometimes I have to remember that what I feel and mentally picture is not the small movement that everyone else sees on the outside. A good example, is the concept of sinking weight.

When I teach it I have to make the movement big enough for students to see it. If I do it naturally, then they create a Jerking movement and not a sinking movement. but in my mind it's always a big movement. Same as it is with sensitivity. In my mind and what I pick up is a much bigger movement from my opponent then what can be visually seen. A person can shift their weight a certain way, and a book opens up in my mind. But on the outside, it may look like nothing happened.

After all of these years of teaching. I think training with iron rings helped me to develop my sinking power. The weights made it easier for me to feel the sinking of weight, so when I took them off I knew what sensation I should be feeling. I'll have to gift @Tony Dismukes some iron rings to see if he notices a difference doing the technique before and after the iron rings.

I think he would be a clean slate for that.

 

[windwalker099]

This is the same thing. It may not seem the same thing but it is.

it's not...

Some might feel it is...

After all of these years of teaching. I think training with iron rings helped me to develop my sinking power. The weights made it easier for me to feel the sinking of weight, so when I took them off I knew what sensation I should be feeling. I'll have to gift @Tony Dismukes some iron rings to see if he notices a difference doing the technique before and after the iron rings.

Long ago, also worked with iron rings, made from car springs cut in half, welded together.
note: for anyone trying this , make sure the weld points are sanded down very good before using

The subject at hand..

"the same thing"

it's not...even among "Taiji" practitioners, depending on method and teacher followed its quite different.

some notes from a noted master explaining this a little more.

Wang Yongquan

The general understanding is that "jin" (劲儿) refers to concentrating one's spirit, intention, and energy into a single point, then applying this point to a specific posture. After long-term training, this will gradually expand and increase, turning into a type of force. This force is acquired through training and is an acquired (post-natal) clumsy strength.

This kind of force is large in form, with sluggish momentum, slow changes, and a straight path of movement. When applied in martial arts, because the body movements are large and the exercise intensity is high, it influences the fluctuations of internal energy, making it prone to restlessness. This approach is similar to the practice and requirements of Long Fist (Changquan).

Beginners practicing Tai Chi might feel that the training methods of Tai Chi are similar to the previously mentioned methods, but this is not the case. According to the theoretical requirements of Tai Chi, after a period of training, gradually combining theory with posture, one will clearly feel that the previously mentioned methods and requirements are different from those of Tai Chi.

Presented to illustrate a difference in thought, not as a definitive way of practice.
Except for those like myself who do follow this method

 

[JowGaWolf]

Our understanding might be different

Was told by my teacher, "make the mind big, the movement small"
Reflects a different way of approaching things.

Good discussion, highlighting, different thoughts and methods.

Lots of talk about what are called 6 harmonies
It might help to illustrate what some mean when they talk about them.
I have a feeling we might be talking about the same things, but not in the same way..
Reading the posts, it doesn't seem to be the same to me..

6 harmonies something I never heard of until meeting my teacher
our group in China. Referred it as 3 outer, 3 inner combined

seems different? maybe not ?

I don't know the 6 harmonies in martial arts. But after reading it, I can probably show examples of me doing just that.

After reading a brief description of it, It seems that a lot of this we naturally do but may not think of. For the hands and feet coordination, most people do this naturally. One of the things I do for using sweeps and foot hooks is to take note of where the hands are positioned because 95% of the times the feet were right below the hands. This allowed me to know where the feet were without looking at the feet.
Lead hand tells where the lead foot is

Grappling position is usually Elbows and knees. Long Guard is Elbow and knees as well.

We don't think about it, but my guess is that we naturally move this way for the most part unless there is some imbalance or physical issue going on.

My Chiropractor pops my neck and my back and never tells me to walk. My alternative doctor who does a much better job with fixing me, aligns me with less snapping the back or neck into alignment, but the way he checks my alignment is to ask me to walk. He makes adjustments and he asks me to walk again. My guess is that he's looking for the what seems to be described as part of the 6 harmonies.

The internal Harmonies from what I reading sound more on the spiritual side of things. Mind and Intent must be focus. So if I want to heal then that's where my mind and intent needs to be focused on. Intent and Qi energy would simply be an "open mind" so that motion and energy can flow without restriction. In terms of my doctor, if I restrict my energy then he cannot read what is wrong, he can only read what is blocked. What we block is different than what is wrong. So when we relax the energy should flow in areas that are well and it should be blocked in areas that have trouble. If I intentionally block the energy then it creates false negatives.

Qi and Spirt would be like intent. My spirit should and my energy should match what I want to do. if I'm happy but my energy is harmful then it doesn't match. If I'm scared but I need to hurt someone, then my energy doesn't match. You will seen in some of my points that I clear my mind and focus on what I'm trying to do which is to land a punch. My spirt says land the punch and my energy is guided to accomplish that. But if My spirit says I do not want to hurt the person in front of me, then I will have a hard time hurting that person. But if you clear your mind and only focus on what you are trying to accomplish. Then it keeps everyone in focus and things do not conflict.

A good example of this would be how some women who take self defense sometimes state that they don't want to hurt the attacker. Their spirt and their qi are not in aggreement so they are less likely to accomplish the task.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Lead hook ("bent arm") is a common KO blow. Garcia...

1. delivers lead hook by shifting his weight from the front foot to the back foot KOing his opponent.

https://imgur.com/b21aJH7

In your video, his opponent attacks first and he counters with hook. It's much easier to "hide your preparation" during counter.

I'm talking about you attack first with hook.

 

[JowGaWolf]

it's not...

Some might feel it is...

I would like to talk about it some more then so that I know what the difference is and why it's not the same.

it's not...

Some might feel it is...


Long ago, also worked with iron rings, made from car springs cut in half, welded together.
note: for anyone trying this , make sure the weld points are sanded down very good before using

The subject at hand..

"the same thing"

it's not...even among "Taiji" practitioners, depending on method and teacher followed its quite different.

some notes from a noted master explaining this a little more.

Wang Yongquan







Presented to illustrate a difference in thought, not as a definitive way of practice.
Except for those like myself who do follow this method

I still do not see the difference. Go piece by piece. Don't put everything at once.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know he's intentionally doing it incorrectly but I don't know what technique he's explaining.

He is doing "hook punch, back fist" combo.

- He throws a hook punch, his opponent dodges underneath.
- He changes his hook punch into back fist and hit on top of his opponent's head.

He shows the wrong way of doing it by freezing the body and only move the arm.

Some people may say this is the beginner level of training by only concentrate on the arm movement. The problem is after one has developed this bad habit (freeze body and only punch with arm), it's very difficult to correct it later on.

 

[windwalker099]

I would like to talk about it some more then so that I know what the difference is and why it's not the same.

Thanks, it's not about talking—it's in the doing.

Unfortunately, anything presented in this medium tends to garner reactions, based on past experience's.
I have no interest in trying to explain, defend, the work of other's, or my work using the same processes.

Do appreciate the offer. Still new to the site. Seems like a mature, experienced group to interact with.
Maybe, in time, an opportunity will present itself. Or I figure out a way to present the work...so far its not been
a go....in other places when it comes up....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

6 harmonies something I never heard of until meeting my teacher
our group in China. Referred it as 3 outer, 3 inner combined

seems different? maybe not ?

It's too abstract to talk about 3 inner harmonies.

If anybody has different definition for the 3 outer harmonies, please share your definition here.

I start another thread to compare 2 different videos about "elbow coordinate with knee". Nobody has shown any opinion yet.

1. Elbow bend, knee straight. Elbow straight, knee straight.

2. Elbow bend, knee bend. Elbow straight, knee straight.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

6 harmonies something I never heard of until meeting my teacher
our group in China. Referred it as 3 outer, 3 inner combined

seems different? maybe not ?

6H is more important in the throwing art than in the striking art.

When you apply "twist and spring" throw, you have to use

- left arm to pull your opponent's right arm toward you.
- right hand to push his neck to your left.
- right leg to spring his left leg to your right.

This is one good example that both your left hand and right hand have to coordinate with your right foot. Without talking about 6H, it's very difficult to teach/learn this technique.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

After all of these years of teaching. I think training with iron rings helped me to develop my sinking power. The weights made it easier for me to feel the sinking of weight, so when I took them off I knew what sensation I should be feeling. I'll have to gift @Tony Dismukes some iron rings to see if he notices a difference doing the technique before and after the iron rings.

I would love a set of iron rings and some basic instruction on how to use them properly. It seems like it would be an interesting experiment.