Do you have a secondary art?

[searcher]

Hi beauty_in_the_sai,

I hear this quite often, and once subscibed to this train of thought myself. When I first started TKD I mentioned to my sabumnim about the inability for a TKDist to be effective on the ground. He invited me to try it. Being a former wrestler, I knew I could take him down easily. The first try, I took a sharp knee to the cheek and backed off. The second try, I took him down and wished I hadn't. I was in an arm lock and took a shot to the neck. It was over in seconds. I said it wasn't fair that he was using Hapkido. He said is was TKD. He said whatever he taught me standing could also be used on the ground. I never mentioned it again. Besides the usual array of kicks, my school is heavily into hand techniques. From the sound of it, that's apparently uncommon for most schools. Your thoughts?

Regards,

Sounds pretty good. I see that your SBN has reatained more of the traditional aspects of the art. We must all remember that General Choi was a BB in Shotokan. So most likely Funakishi had shared with him many of the Okinawan techniques that he knew. The true Okinawan karate styles have joint locks, throws, takedowns, and some ground fighting.

It is uncommon for most schools to keep the broader scope of the original style. Most have become so focused on the sport side of TKD that they have lost their true selves. Don't get me wrong sport MA's is funa dn has its place. But why do we sacrifice the tradition to get Olympic medals or to get a trophy? The answer is simple, money and ego. If you win a trophy your head will swell from all of the praise you will receive. The othe ris that if by-standers see your students winning they will want to become your student and this will increase your monthly income. Just my $0.02 worth.

 

[FearlessFreep]

But why do we sacrifice the tradition to get Olympic medals or to get a trophy. The answer is simple, money and ego.

The answer could also be 'competitive spirit' Why do people play paintball. It's fun and it's fun to do well and you get a sense of accomplishment and a sense of triumph in winning and a desire to do better. Sport TKD can give you that, TKD for self-defense cannot. Different people do TKD for different reasons, whether self-defense or respect of the traditional art or just for fun or sport. Though that's not my focus, I'm not going to begrudge them that. Anytime there is a demand, there are those to fill the demand. Some people only want the competiton so there are going to be instructors that focus on meeting that desire. I think sometimes we forget that, realistically, in our society today, the chace of needing to use self-defense in a threatening situation is actually pretty low for more people, and a lot of people are not going to bother putting that much time into such a hobby.

Kids grow up learning baseball or soccer or martial arts. IF they just do it for sport, let 'em have fun

 

[searcher]

I think sometimes we forget that, realistically, in our society today, the chace of needing to use self-defense in a threatening situation is actually pretty low for more people, and a lot of people are not going to bother putting that much time into such a hobby.

I'll try to remeber to tell my students that their chances are very slim at needing to defend themselves. Including the ones who have been a part of a domestic abuse case or a rape.

Kids grow up learning baseball or soccer or martial arts. IF they just do it for sport, let 'em have fun

So do we need to seel out and join the soccer mom revolution?

 

[FearlessFreep]

So do we need to seel out and join the soccer mom revolution?

I'm not sure what 'seel out' means

But no, I don't think so. Three of my kids do Tae Kwon Do, as do I. Our teacher is fairly traditonal in teaching the whole art, with a lot of attention to detail in forms and proper technique in movement and such. Strong emphasis on self-defense, including hand movement, joint-locks, takedowns, etc.. Nevertheless I'm not going to be too critical of someone who just does it for sport, or just teaches it for sport. People do things for their own reasons; I don't think people who teach TKD as a sport are just doing it for "money and ego" as the end of the story. Maybe that's in there as part of it, but not always completely in a bad way. I mean, anyone who opens a store to sell something, whether a product or service, is doing it at least somewhat for the money, if they are trying to make a living. "Ego" is not far from "Pride of accomplishment" is nt from from "enjoyment of accmplishment", and that's not inherently a bad thing. It could be, or not.

If we lived in a more violent society, or more individual violent where people lived with weapons and were expected to protect themselves regularly from maurading bandits (ok, some may think that *is* they case, but I don't think it touches most people) and learning a MA was truly a survival skill for most people who did it, I'd be a lot more critical of people who trained it 'just for sport'.

I do wish, however, that like the cardio/kickboxing threads in other forums, that those who taught it as a sport were a bit more upfront that 'this is a sport, not a self-defense skill'

 

[searcher]

I meant sell out. I would agree with you on instructors telling their students upfront that what they are teaching is a martial sport. The fact remains that we live in a violent world and we need to be able to protect ourselves. Don't get me wrong, I love tourneys and compete often, but my training and the training of my students is geared towards the defensive side of things. Everything has its place, but we should not let ourselves get lulled into a false sense of security, either by our training or by our thinking that we don't live with violence.

One question Fearless Freep. Have you never defended yourself or been involved in a violent altercation? Many if not most of us have.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Have you never defended yourself or been involved in a violent altercation?

No, I haven't. I'm 35 years old and the last time I was in any sort of fight was when I was maybe 15 in highschool and it wasn't that serious. My instructor's focus is self-defense/combat and that's what I train for. If I need to use it, I'll be ready. However I pray I never need to and statistically speaking I don't think the odds are high that I will

 

[MichiganTKD]

One of the reasons I never saw the real need to study grappling. As far as TKD is concerned, vital spots work just as well on the ground as they do standing up. All clinching seems to do is prolong the situation. I never heard my Instructor say "You should study grappling". I would been scared to try it on him. I'm sure he would used a very painful TKD technique.

 

[searcher]

Just remember to keep an open mind. I am train mostly as a stand-up fighter, but I will never say that I can't be taken down. I study grappling so I WILL know how to apply locks and use kyusho on the ground.

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,


As a Taekwon-Doin I practice the traditions of the art. Striking, joint destruction, and disbalancing are all included in the Chang Hon cirricullum.

I must also state that in actual combat (speaking for myself) I do not wish to take the fight to the ground. However, it is faulty logic to believe that I cannot and will not ever be taken down. Can the same techniques you use on your feet (striking and joint destruction) be effectively utilized on the ground
...YES...however, we must practice the difference in application!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I was taught some ground fighting also, gemini, but if I was to be knocked to the ground back when I was a pure taekwondoist, I must admit I won't be too comfortable trying to fight a wrestler or a ju-jutsu practioner. I just don't think TKD goes enough into ground fighting, judt like ju-jutsu pry doesn't do enough stand up fighting. There must be a balance somewhere though.

 

[bignick]

judt(sic) like ju-jutsu pry doesn't do enough stand up fighting.

If you think jujutsu doesn't incorporate stand up work, you're mistaken. I've been training in jujutsu close to 3 years now and almost never find myself on the ground while training...

Grappling ≠ Ground, nor does jujutsu necessarily imply grappling, there is quite a bit of strking involved....

Just as the public taekwondo gets it's common perception of taekwondo from the Olympic style sparring, people have misconceptions of jujutsu from what they've seen of Brazilian Jujutsu...

 

[Spookey]

Nick,


Great post...You can take the credit for shooting that one down (you got there first)!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the reasons I never saw the real need to study grappling. As far as TKD is concerned, vital spots work just as well on the ground as they do standing up. All clinching seems to do is prolong the situation. I never heard my Instructor say "You should study grappling". I would been scared to try it on him. I'm sure he would used a very painful TKD technique.

I would hate to try and shoot in on a good striker. One is just asking for punishment, but in any stand up situations, clinches occur randomly. This is where grappling happens. You can work your escapes to stay away and continue, or you can work some throws and take the fight to the ground. Or sometimes you just trip and fall and your opponent lands on or near you. One way or another, grappling helps.

I would say that if you sparred someone of similar rank and that person had rank in a grappling art, you may be wishing you'd at least checked out some grappling...

Besides, its fun!

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[jfarnsworth]

I would say that if you sparred someone of similar rank and that person had rank in a grappling art, you may be wishing you'd at least checked out some grappling
Besides, its fun!

You got it bro. I've been saying the same things for a few years now and my Kenpo community shuns the idea. However I'm with 'ya.
artyon:

 

[bignick]

Nick,


Great post...You can take the credit for shooting that one down (you got there first)!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Yeah, I get real touchy on this subject and it's TKD equivalent. I get people from striking arts ribbing me about Judo and Jujutsu and I get people from Judo and Jujutsu ribbing me about TKD. Although, I'd never have continued with Judo or Jujutsu if it weren't for my instructor. I've never seen a man so respectable of other arts. Mostly because he has first hand experience with them, although he's only ever accepted rank in karate, judo and jujutsu. As a career Marine he traveled around the globe and worked with the some pretty cool people like Bong So Han and came into contact with Jhoon Rhee at a few tournaments, I believe.

 

[searcher]

Nick,


Great post...You can take the credit for shooting that one down (you got there first)!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

Dito from me. I have trained with several BJJ and traditional Ju-jutsu BB's and they are all a real pain to strike fast enough or hit hard enough to keep from them atking you down. The only thing that has saved me has been my study of submission techniques from sambo, BJJ, Gene LeBell, and from the karate style that I study. My primary art has a very large number of joint locks, takedowns, some throws, and we incorperate the use of kyusho. This mix put together with my partners' training in the grappling styles has definately opened my eyes about getting taken to the ground.

Not to stir things up, but if any striker thinks that they can keep from being taken to the ground by someone with grappling experience I think you need to try it sometime. It will give you a new reverance for grapplers.

I have been taken down so many times and had to fight hard to force a tapout that I am thinking I should have been a grappler.

 

[Spookey]

Searcher,

Nick and myself were referencing the fact that Japanese Jujutsu is not only a ground fighting and grappling art. I respect you opinion however you might have missed the point of the post!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[MichiganTKD]

I've never claimed that noone will ever take me to the ground. I do think it is important to learn how to fall correctly to minimize injury, whether in sparring or on the street. This is where some knowledge of judo or aikido can definitely come in handy.
I strongly disagree with people who purposely go to the ground to execute kicks. I think that is foolish and dangerous. If you do go down, it is very helpful to understand how to throw your technique from the ground. But you should not purposely go down to do it. I don't mean sweeps, I mean physically lying down to throw a kick or punch.

 

[SwedishChef]

Sil Lum Chuan Tao. My problem is I don't have a primary art. When time constraints relax I'm leaning towards wing chun.

 

[searcher]

Searcher,

Nick and myself were referencing the fact that Japanese Jujutsu is not only a ground fighting and grappling art. I respect you opinion however you might have missed the point of the post!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

My apologies Spookey. Please forgive my missing the point. Ishould have read more closely.