Who is the Founder of TKD...Debate!

[terryl965]

I dont mind links-I actually click on them and read every one. If I do not have the time in one particular "sitting", I have a folder on my "desktop" labeled "Things to Read". If I like the link, I will save it in my "favorites"


So, terry l, go ahead and post----"link" me, man

I'll take that under advisment!

 

[Spookey]

Dear Terry,

I do have a perception I call my own as do you...I am however open for debate (thus expressing an open mind)!

Please understand that I have no intention of disgracing others as you feel i have done to you. The reply I made was in reference to a post which contained lots of useable info, however (at least to my eyes) was lacking in its explanation of exactly what you point was. There was alot of info, would you care to point out some specifics. Maybe your feeling regarding the situation. I have not seen you speak you feelings regarding the matter (which was the point of the debate, to gain understanding of each others perception) as you have only posted comments made from others. What is your specific opinion regarding the creation of TKD?

TAEKWON!
SPKS

 

[terryl965]

Spookey,

I believe TKD is a long history of different styles rolled into one from alot of great instructors from the old Japanese and Okanawa styles of Karate. That does not mean post war I believe the Art of TKD was from around 50 b.c., I believe modern TKD as we now know it was brought back from Japan and Okinawa, I believe the Kwans got together to try to shed some light on there independents. WTF is regarded as the sport of TKD while other intities still preserve the Art that once was. I teach both ITF and WTF.My school is a member of AAU and USA Taekwondo. My childern are learning Olympic style right now with ITF influence to there workouts. I guess I would be consider a rebel in TKD. I first started out in Okinawa Karate and Judo for that was what my father tought. I changed over to TKD early 80's and study under Gin Kim in Southern California I choosed him for the roughness that he tought it was not water down. If you have any questionplease ask and I will try to answer best I can.

Warmest Regards
Terry Lee Stoker

 

[Ippon Ken]

And again I repeat...the thread is titled "Who is the founder of TKD" not what does TKD derive from, or from what did it evolve, or what is its foundation, ect...

TAEKWON!
SPK

Let's clarify this once and for all. TKD, TSD, MDK or whatever other Korean karate system you want to name was founded by an Okinawan- Gichin Funakoshi. His brand of Japanized Okinawan karate was taught to a bunch of Koreans who were a part of the Japanese army during WWII. They hated the Japs' and many were put into prison for conspiring against them. Now you can see the reason for the intense nationalism expressed by Choi and others.

So before folks, like the IOC, were led to believe that TKD was a strictly Korean MA, it was really Shotokan karate. The stories I have always heard from the guys I know who served in 'Nam with R.O.K. soldiers and their brand of karate (which was said to look a lot like Shorin Ryu or Shorin-derived styles), now make sense.

Presently it is a different beast, an extremely pale representation (for the most part) of an already diluted form of Shorin + some Goju Ryu karate called Shotokan. Hence, the names of the poomse or kata. Once those were changed and the art became kicking intensive (conversely Shorin and its derivatives are at least 75% hands, arms and elbows-- this includes grappling), it became an ineffective SD system and one patterned for money-making, flash and competition. The kata are the ryu. Remember that.

You must know where you came from to know where you're going.

Of course I put all this together decades ago, but it is fun to imagine you've put 2 and 2 together and got Fo'!

Take Ones Dough, backatcha!!!

 

[Spookey]

Ippon,

I wish to agree with you on a portion of your previous post!

Gichin Funakoshi should be credited with the creation of TSD and MDK. Secondarily those arts Korean proliferation should be credited to Hwang Kee, Ji Han Jae, etc.

I donot however believe that TKD is included in this listing for the following reason...Hwang Kee brought back pre-existing patterns to Korea as did General Choi. The difference lies in the fact that General Choi taught them as Karate. Later he created his Chong Han Hyungs and taught them as TKD!

Just my opinion....

TAEKWON!
SpooKey

 

[Spookey]

Ippon,

One more thing...my Instructor is one of those "who served in Nam w/ RoK soldiers". He is an Oh Do Kwan instructor. He also holds rank in Shorin Ryu. His instruction has prompted me to ask this question to you!

Question,

I ask you to compare video of the early ITF (for instance the ITF Pioneers DVD) and compare it with the art of Shotokan Karate. Are there similarities, yes...is the overall the same, NO!

Think about it...San Shou shares some techniques with both Greco Roman Wrestling and Muay Thai, yet they are distinctly different in their totality!

TAEKWON!
SPooKs

 

[Miles]

Let's clarify this once and for all.

Sure, til next time.

TKD, TSD, MDK or whatever other Korean karate system you want to name was founded by an Okinawan- Gichin Funakoshi. His brand of Japanized Okinawan karate was taught to a bunch of Koreans who were a part of the Japanese army during WWII. They hated the Japs' and many were put into prison for conspiring against them. Now you can see the reason for the intense nationalism expressed by Choi and others.

Tang Soo Do was the name of the art GM LEE, Won Kuk called what he was teaching. It is the Korean pronunciation of the Chinese characters for Karate-do. GM Lee was never a member of the Japanese army, he was a student (in fact a law student) of Funakoshi, Gichen from 1933 until 1944 when he returned to Korea (that would be just before the end of WWII). Other Korean students in Japan studied under other Okinawan masters, notably Toyama, Kanken (that's Shudokan, not Shotokan BTW).

Koreans "hated" the Japanese not only because they were placed in prison but because the Japanese instituted a nearly total cultural genocide during a particularly brutal occupation. I think you need to do a little more research-start with the term "comfort woman" and you will get a glimpse of how oppressive the Japanese treated Koreans. Actually, the equal-opportunity Japanese did the same thing to the Chinese, start with the search "rape of Nanking."

Presently it is a different beast, an extremely pale representation (for the most part) of an already diluted form of Shorin + some Goju Ryu karate called Shotokan. Hence, the names of the poomse or kata. Once those were changed and the art became kicking intensive (conversely Shorin and its derivatives are at least 75% hands, arms and elbows-- this includes grappling), it became an ineffective SD system and one patterned for money-making, flash and competition. The kata are the ryu. Remember that.

There is no Poomsae (this is how the Kukkiwon says to spell it BTW) which is exactly as as seen in Shorin-ryu or Shorei-ryu or Goju-ryu. There is no Goju-ryu in Shotokan (which does have its basis in Shorin-ryu).

Presently Taekwondo is the most widely practiced martial art in the world. That's incredible given that after WWII, Korea had its own little civil war.

Taekwondo is used by militaries, including those of the US and Korea (that would be ROK, i.e. South Korea), the latter still being technically at war with its Northern neighbor (that would be the DPRK). I don't understand why a country (no matter how nationalistic), under threat of a possible invasion, would have its military train in a "pale representation of an already diluted form...of Shotokan."

Of course I put all this together decades ago, but it is fun to imagine you've put 2 and 2 together and got Fo'!

I'm still studying. I'm getting a handle on some things, but I have lots of material to work on.

Take Care,

Miles

 

[The Kai]

Think about it...San Shou shares some techniques with both Greco Roman Wrestling and Muay Thai, yet they are distinctly different in their totality!

TAEKWON!
SPooKs

San Shou is a modern competive form of sparring, that has mixed in elements of Muay Thia and wrestling to win the bout. It is more a case of reverse enginerring rather that engineering

 

[Miles]

San Shou is a modern competive form of sparring, that has mixed in elements of Muay Thia and wrestling to win the bout. It is more a case of reverse enginerring rather that engineering

Todd, I've seen a few San Shou bouts on ESPN (always with Cung Le.....?)

Why do you say "reverse engineering"? (which in my mind calls for taking something already in existence and working backwards??)

Thanks!

Miles

 

[The Kai]

My point was that San shou is not a traditional course of study. So saying that Muay tahi and wrestling both appear in Kung fu would be incorrect, however MT and wrestling booyth appear in San shou-why San Shou is a modrn competetion wrapped up in a Kung Fu Belt

 

[Spookey]

The Kai,

My point still stands...just because an art contains techniques from a pre-existing art does not mean that they are merely an imitation.

San Shou contains facets of Muay Thai and Greco Roman Wrestling (among other arts) however it is uniquly different from both

It is well documented that Judo was derived from Juijutsu, however no one will argue that they are the same.

Just as it has been documented that Taekwon-Do had an early basis in Shotokan Karate-Do. However, Taekwon-Do is not Shotokan and is individualized based on its own merit!

A martial art is not defined merely by its technique, but moreso by the individual methodology of the system itself!


IPPON KEN,

I am interested to learn more about your "Nam era buddies"...under what Oh Do Kwan instructors did they study? Where you in Vietnam and have you studied Taekwon-Do under an Oh Do Kwan instructor? I am hoping to understand where your logic comes from other than pro Japanese propoganda (based on your name, I would say you are a fan of the Japanese arts if a practicioner at all)!

Yom Chi...TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[The Kai]

I'm sorry, but i don't disagree with you. TKD and Shotokan have taken different paths-whatever similiarities they might have shared have less and less apparent

 

[47MartialMan]

I'm sorry, but i don't disagree with you. TKD and Shotokan have taken different paths-whatever similiarities they might have shared have less and less apparent

I guess per name and country?

 

[Spookey]

47 Martial Man,

You wish to emply that the only difference between Taekwon-Do and Shotokan is the name and the counrty...to that I ask the following question:



Where in Shotokan is there such heavy methodology regarding high kicks, jump spining kicks, and multi directional kicks?

The above list is very simplistic difference between the teachings of Funakoshi and the methodology of Taekwon-Do. Another distinct difference between Taekwon-Do and the teachings of Funakoshi are the shorter, higher stances of TKD...

I await your reply!

TAEKWON!

SPooKeY

 

[MichiganTKD]

I would tend to agree. Tae Kwon Do is not, and I don't think ever has been, Shotokan by another name. I will admit, Won Kuk Lee studied Shotokan while in Japan, as did many of the other Kwan Jang. However, based on what I have read about what Lee taught upon his return to Korea, it was NOT simply Shotokan. It was his unique teaching, combined with the teaching of other Masters (Gen. Choi playing a big part), that became Tae Kwon Do.
From the outset, Tang Soo Do/Tae Kwon Do kicking was designed to reflect Korean sensibilities-directed anywhere, especially high. Also, jumping and flying kicks were given a prominent role, unlike Shotokan where they are minimized. Chung Do Kwan/Oh Do Kwan trademark techniques were the side kick and jumping side kick.
Perhaps there is a Shotokan influence, especially in basic marching technique, but it cannot be said that Tae Kwon Do is simply Korean Shotokan, given what techniques it did.

 

[47MartialMan]

Perhaps there is a Shotokan influence, especially in basic marching technique, but it cannot be said that Tae Kwon Do is simply Korean Shotokan, given what techniques it did.Where in Shotokan is there such heavy methodology regarding high kicks, jump spining kicks, and multi directional kicks?

The above list is very simplistic difference between the teachings of Funakoshi and the methodology of Taekwon-Do. Another distinct difference between Taekwon-Do and the teachings of Funakoshi are the shorter, higher stances of TKD...

Hey, I am not applying there arent any differences per limitations to name and country. Like other martial arts, each influences another that such will be built upon/altered.

Of course they are different in those ways.

Thus, in tournaments, for example, one can hardly expect a Shotokan stylist to place high in a TKD tourney, or vice versa.