Do you claim any religious faith? / How are you on sharing?

[Tez3]

Not always. Jews hire and fire their "leaders". And in most Orthodox congregations, a fair percentage of the men have recieved smicha, ordination, and can be addressed as Rabbi. They just chose to work at semething else. So the congretional Rabbi can't just spout tings off, a lot of his congregants know as much and sometimes more than he does.

Jews don't blindly follow. We argue, incessently. There is a lot of truth in "2 Jews, 3 opinions".

Only 3? bah, we have four here At least we don't actually go to war with each other like some other religions do!

 

[oftheherd1]

I'd venture that Christianity itself, while its present forms are a creation of the 3rd or 4th century after Christ, still certainly constitutes historical evidence of something. I mean, something happened, and someone was involved, and it all made quite an impression, but as to what those actually, were.............

ACtually, according to Persian mythology,Mithra was born of a virgin, called Anahita, "the mother of God."



Mithras was a sun god. The Sol Invictus cult and Mithraism were directly tied together, as was the cross-it was this cross by which Constantine ruled, by the way, that of the Sol Invictus cult,...Christianity, not so much, though the relationship between the three in Byzantium might well be the reason for his legitimizing Christianity.



Apropos of what, exactly? See "Sol Invictus.




And there were 12 of them.



After he was crucified on a tree, only to rise from the dead on Mar. 25th.

Like I said, you are welcome to believe what you want-and there is actually less known about Mithraism than there is about early Christianity-but that doesn't change the facts. Try to accept for a minute that of course a Catholic webpage is going to argue for the exclusivity of the various elements of the Christ mythology, whether those elements are in traditions that predate Christianity or not, Try to accept that a "god-man's" death as sacrifice for "mankind," and his resurrection are common themes in religions that predate Christianity, going back to ancient Egypt, India and Persia, and that those deaths variously took some form of crucifixion-tied to a tree, bound to a rock, etc. Since Mithraism and Christianity were contemporaneous, it's likely that there was a fair amount of cross-pollination, in part because of similarities. Communion like ritual meals are part and parcel of all religions, especially mystery religions like Mithraism-and Christianity,a that time, was a mystery religion.

Mithraism also, by the way, had a head-priest called a "Pope."

And, of course, feel free to believe what you want. Just don't get confused about facts.

Well sir, I guess you and I will just have to disagree about 'facts.' The reading I have done since you brought up this about Mithra just doesn't agree with what you are saying. I am also surprised to hear that a "god-man's" death is so common. Not so common as for me to have learned of it. Your statement makes it seem like almost all religions have that belief. You also mention a Pope. It makes it seem you are a few clicks ahead of me in searching the web. There was one site that mentioned that there was some reports of a head to the religion that was pope-like. Which got it from the other, Mithraism from Catholicism, or Catholicism from Mithraism? I didn't see anything about that.

Even so, I would wonder how much might be influenced by Christianity? It all just seems too pat to me. I don't know why you mentioned a "Catholic" webpage. Only one place I checked on line was Catholic. And none of them stated Mithra was the sun-god, although some did mention there was a sun-god in the religion as well as Mithra. I wonder if you have some agenda. Your statements don't always agree. You mentioned that Mithra was a Persian god predating Christianity by several hundred years, then that they were contemporaneous. You also expect me and those who read what you say to believe that people who valued their Judaism would so easily accept a Persian belief system, and believe another Jewish person was a Persian god in fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies. Just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, be happy with it.

 

[oftheherd1]

Not always. Jews hire and fire their "leaders". And in most Orthodox congregations, a fair percentage of the men have recieved smicha, ordination, and can be addressed as Rabbi. They just chose to work at semething else. So the congretional Rabbi can't just spout tings off, a lot of his congregants know as much and sometimes more than he does.

Jews don't blindly follow. We argue, incessently. There is a lot of truth in "2 Jews, 3 opinions".

I hadn't heard that before, mostly I guess just because I hadn't tried to find out. But I am not surprised. I had seen Rabbis portrayed as if that weren't so. So much for uninformed non-Jewish authors I guess. Thanks for clarifying that.

 

[Buka]

Looking at all the different religions.....

Do you think everyone is praying to the same entity/God?

Or, concerning a religion that's different from yours, do you think the people are praying to an empty seat?

 

[elder999]

. I am also surprised to hear that a "god-man's" death is so common. Not so common as for me to have learned of it. .

You seem to like wikipedia. Here.

 

[oftheherd1]

You seem to like wikipedia. Here.

lol. I wouldn't say I like wikikpedia, but it is a handy quick reference. However, it must always be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't have time to look at all the instances give in that article. But the only one I saw that was "Try to accept that a "god-man's" death as sacrifice for "mankind," and his resurrection are common themes in religions that predate Christianity, going back to ancient Egypt, India and Persia, and that those deaths variously took some form of crucifixion-tied to a tree, bound to a rock, etc." a sacrifice for mankind, was Jesus. There may be others there, but of the about ten I looked at, it was usually just fighting between gods, that resulted in the death of one of the gods, and some way of bringing them back to life. Nothing for mankind, no crucifixion, nor thought of consequences of any kind for mankind. Some of the instances were of religions that post date Christianity. There may well be some there that are as you said, but as I said, I don't have the time, nor frankly, the inclination, to search all of them.

 

[CanuckMA]

Only 3? bah, we have four here At least we don't actually go to war with each other like some other religions do!

And the Seder arguments over soft/hard matzah balls or plain/sweet gefilte is what exactly?

 

[Tez3]

And the Seder arguments over soft/hard matzah balls or plain/sweet gefilte is what exactly?

The stuff of life my dear! As Socrates said 'the unexamined life is not worth living' we just like to do it out loud and everyone having a say!

 

[Flying Crane]

Thank you again Michael. I can picture you as that teenager and it must have been a complex time for you trying to strike out as an independent young man while wanting still to please your family. I am not surprised you reacted as you did. I wonder if the choice had TRULY been yours might things have been different. We will never know I think.

I think the choice would not have been different. From my youngest memories, I know that I never felt drawn to an active church life of any kind. It has been clear to me for a very long time.

Relevant to this topic: my parents just left a few days ago after coming to visit. It was a good visit, we did some fun things, had some good times. It is rare that I see them more than once a year, and sometimes less than that. On the last day before they left for the airport, my mom caught me alone for a few minutes and started talking to me about making room for god in my life. I felt ambushed. I'll be 41 years old in three weeks and my mom can't seem to leave it alone and allow that I will make my own decisions, as an adult. It is tremendously frustrating and went a long way to sour an otherwise good visit.

 

[john2054]

No thank you.

Tez3, not withstanding what i have already said, and in contrast to your negative post I am going to go on about my garden for a bit now. Partly because the last two years which i have spent in hospital i have had to do without. So the first two plants which i put in were hardy vine. I thought i might not have soil under the stones which layer my surface, but my mum used the logic that seeing as there were weeds there, there must be soil under too. And do you know what? She was right!

So a little more digging and i have now planted some herbs including Rosemary and possibly mint, some strawberries, some dwarf Lupin (nice to look at without flowers and i think they will be stunners when they do bloom), other assorted bedding plants to add colour (primula prim roses and the like), and some ferns which I think were getting accustomed to being kept indoors the outdoor elements have been a shock. However there is still some green at the base of the plant, and i am hoping after a season or two they will begin to pick up again.

I realise that I have just done precisely what you asked me not to Tez, but I don't know what little things give you pleasure Tez, but I can comfortably say that my garden is a big hitter in that category for me. Church is nice, to spend time with the fellow congregation, and hopefully you feel the same about your place of worship (synagogue?), but for me well you can't beat getting down and dirty in the soil, digging up a weed or two and putting them in. Yeah baby!

 

[Carol]

I suppose you could say Mithras was born of a virgin; if rocks are virgins.

The December 25th myth appears to be a generic holiday of the Romans and not specifically associated to Mithraism.

FYI -- here is a Catholic resource that references both the Romans and "syncreticism with Mithraism" Personally I learned the date with is ties to Mithraism, and its importance as the early Christians spread through Persia.

Natalis Invicti

The well-known solar feast, however, of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. Mommsen (Corpus Inscriptionum Latinarum, 1[SUP]2[/SUP], p. 338) has collected the evidence for the feast, which reached its climax of popularity under Aurelian in 274. Filippo del Torre in 1700 first saw its importance; it is marked, as has been said, without addition in Philocalus' Calendar. It would be impossible here even to outline the history of solar symbolism and language as applied to God, the Messiah, and Christ in Jewish or Christian canonical, patristic, or devotional works. Hymns and Christmas offices abound in instances; the texts are well arranged by Cumont (op. cit., addit. Note C, p. 355).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

 

[Josh Oakley]

Looking at all the different religions.....

Do you think everyone is praying to the same entity/God?

Or, concerning a religion that's different from yours, do you think the people are praying to an empty seat?

I think they're all praying to an empty seat, but prayer is really more for the benefit of the praying person, not for the deity. So there is SOME value in prayer.

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[Carol]

I think the choice would not have been different. From my youngest memories, I know that I never felt drawn to an active church life of any kind. It has been clear to me for a very long time.

Relevant to this topic: my parents just left a few days ago after coming to visit. It was a good visit, we did some fun things, had some good times. It is rare that I see them more than once a year, and sometimes less than that. On the last day before they left for the airport, my mom caught me alone for a few minutes and started talking to me about making room for god in my life. I felt ambushed. I'll be 41 years old in three weeks and my mom can't seem to leave it alone and allow that I will make my own decisions, as an adult. It is tremendously frustrating and went a long way to sour an otherwise good visit.

I think we have some of the same relatives....

 

[elder999]

. You also mention a Pope. It makes it seem you are a few clicks ahead of me in searching the web. There was one site that mentioned that there was some reports of a head to the religion that was pope-like. Which got it from the other, Mithraism from Catholicism, or Catholicism from Mithraism? I didn't see anything about that.

It’s Latin, fer Chrissakes. :lfao:

Pope=papa="father."

The title is used by several churches, including the Coptic church. It was first used by the Patriarch of Alexandria, in the Byzantine Church.
It was used by several mystery schools, at least those that didn’t have a woman at their head. It was used in Mithraism, which didn’t even have woman members.

The first Bishop of Rome to use the title occured sometime after 300 A.D., either Marcillinus, around 300 A.D., or as late as John I, around 600 A.D. So, all those others had it first…..

. Even so, I would wonder how much might be influenced by Christianity? It all just seems too pat to me.

I’ll get to this-if it "all just seems to pat" to you, well, who has an agenda, again?

. I don't know why you mentioned a "Catholic" webpage. Only one place I checked on line was Catholic.

Er……Bill posted a Catholic webpage to refute what I said about Mithras. Interestingly, Carol posted a Catholic webpage that supports part of it.

. And none of them stated Mithra was the sun-god, although some did mention there was a sun-god in the religion as well as Mithra.

The Sun is one of Mithra’s companions, whom he is depicted dining with.

Mithras is also identified with the Sun in Leo, by some scholars.

Called "The Light of the World," Mithras was identified-in Rome-with Sol Invictus.
　

. I wonder if you have some agenda.

You somehow missed the part about my lineage-that my father-who I loved very much-was an Episcopal priest, as was my grandfather. Funny story: between the ages of 4 and 6, I’d use blankets as "vestments," put a dust-pan atop the broom, and have "processions" around the apartment, playing "priest." If anything, I really don’t care what people choose to believe-if their religion provides a framework for ordering their lives-if they treat others as they want to be treated, then I don’t really care..

I’ve liked nearly every Mormon I’ve ever met, and admire how they order their lives. If I can respect members of a religion that is not quite 200 years old, and whose founder was a convicted con-man from New York named Joe Smith, of all things, how could I not respect Christianity? It’s just not for me.

I have a deep and abiding love for the teachings of the rabbi, Yeshua, though-I only wish that more people who call themselves "Christians" actually followed them-such is human nature, though. I have a deep and abiding respect for the office of the Holy Father, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Bishop of Rome, Successor of the Chief of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Primate of Italy, Patriarch of the West, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, and Sovereign of the Vatican State-it represents a nearly 2,000 year tradition-regardless of the current or past status of the "Catholic Church."

I have no "agenda," other than the truth-and perhaps, the facts-search for my posts on religion-or the "68 degree rule"- to understand-I have no particular axe to grind, and don’t care whom or what a person bends their knee to, as long as they treat others the way they expect to be treated.

(You should do a search here on the "68 degree rule" to understand the difference, between "truth and facts.:lol: )

You can keep your truth, as far as I’m concerned, regardless of the facts. :wink:

. Your statements don't always agree. You mentioned that Mithra was a Persian god predating Christianity by several hundred years, then that they were contemporaneous.

Contemporaneous in Rome. Predating Christianity in Persia.What’s so difficult about that? :lol: Doubtless, brought to Rome by soldiers who encountered him in Persia or Syria, or somewhere in the east, but rising full flower as a somewhat different thing in Rome.

. You also expect me and those who read what you say to believe that people who valued their Judaism would so easily accept a Persian belief system, and believe another Jewish person was a Persian god in fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies. Just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, be happy with it.

No odder, really, than "people who valued their Judaism" embracing the intricate iconography of "Christianity" as being anything other than "graven imagery," and a violation of the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Commandment. Remember, prior to around the third or fourth century, Christianity was primarily a "Jewish cult," albeit one that accepted some gentile membership-though there was a great deal of conflict over this-and one whose practice centered primarily around table fellowship-ritual meals-celebrated in household churches.

Of course, the one thing we know from the various Mithraeum was that the Romans had no such compunctions about graven images-they are full of images of Mithras, as well as other gods.

More to the point, human nature has demonstrated, across the globe, and at various times in history, that mankind will mix and match their deities and religions at will. Thus it is that in Korea, one can meet a practitioner of native Korean shamanism who is also a Buddhist, and in Tibet, Nepal or Bhutan find the same, but with a differing form of Buddhism. One can find Native American ritual, like the peyote ceremony (in some parts of the U.S.) that has absorbed the Christianity brought by missionaries-even in Hawaii, if one knows where to look. One can find Russian Orthodox adherents that are also practitioners of true Siberian shamanism, just to give this post a left-handed martial arts related relevance. In Indonesia, one can find an Islamic culture that has absorbed elements of Hinduism, Buddhism and animism.

It’s called syncreticism, and it’s what humans do-given a chance-when it comes to religion.

So it is that we find that "Easter," that highest of holy days in the Christian calendar, the day of Christ’s resurrection, the "movable feast," takes it’s name from a pagan godess and her celebration-one marked by the giving of eggs, and rabbits as gifts. Thus it is that we find Christmas, the celebration of the baby Jesus’ birth, celebrated on the holiday consecrated to the sun god, and marked by various pagan rituals like decoration with a tree, pine boughs and holly. Thus it is that we find numerous "saints" to really be ancient local gods predating Christianity and masquerading under the veneer of Christianity. Thus it is that we find Mexico’s Virgin of Guadelupe to not be the "Virgin Mary," but the Aztec goddess Tonantzin, masquerading as a the "mother of God."

None of which, of course, is my fault-not an agenda, just the product of scholarship, really.

As far as the relationship between Mirthraism and Christianity goes, Bill isn’t quite right-not just because of the Christian/Catholic apologetic nature of his sources, but because we don’t know-the relationship between Mithraism and Christianity hasn't been "debunked," it's been debated, disputed and denied, but it persists in scholarship. In the end, we really don’t know nearly enough about Mithraism to establish what it all means-we don't know enough about early Christianity, and even less about Mithraism. Sources give Mithras as being born of a virgin, and he’s depicted rising from a rock-we don’t know what that really means, and, when it comes to "gods"-hardly "rational beings bound by logic" in any mythology-is it really so unusual that their birth might be depicted in two, or even three ways, or even said to be both? We can’t even say what the Roman Mithraists said in secret about Mithras-especially given that only men were members. What we do know is that it was contemporaneous with early Christianity-proto-Christianity , if you will, a "Jewish cult," at that, but that it was quite prevalent alongside the Sol Invictus cult at the time when Constantine-head priest of Sol Invictus by virtue of his office- legitimized Christianity. For a polytheistic people, what could be more natural than merging their Mithraist and Sun cult practices with their new religion, Christianity?

Just sayin……:lol:

If I do have an "agenda," it's a product of having read the various forms of the CHristian Bible, and finding the various errors in translation and interpretation therein-and the damnable persecutions and bullying that result from it. We'd all be a little bit better off if we could just follow that "New York Religion," I follow, and mind our own business.

 

[CanuckMA]

You also expect me and those who read what you say to believe that people who valued their Judaism would so easily accept a Persian belief system, and believe another Jewish person was a Persian god in fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies. Just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, be happy with it.

Problem with that is that Tanach does not prophesize anything Xtians say it does.

 

[elder999]

Problem with that is that Tanach does not prophesize anything Xtians say it does.

Interestingly, the New Testament reflects this:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Judah, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.-Matthew 6:3

Which is kinda like saying, in a culture where He'd have been" Yeshua ben Joseph, "Jesus, son of Joseph"-Isn't this Mary's bastard?"

Not of "the line of David," at all-especially since Joseph had been cuckolded by the deity......

 

[CanuckMA]

And you know how to prove Jesus was Jewish, right?

He lived at home until he was 33
He tought his mother was a virgin
And he went into his father's business.

 

[granfire]

And you know how to prove Jesus was Jewish, right?

He lived at home until he was 33
He tought his mother was a virgin
And he went into his father's business.

you left out rowdy fellow and presumably hot head....

at least at times....

 

[elder999]

And you know how to prove Jesus was Jewish, right?

He lived at home until he was 33
He tought his mother was a virgin
And he went into his father's business.

And not necessarily a "carpenter." The Greek word is "tekton," which means "craftsman," or "builder." Could've been a mason, a jeweler or a tinsmith......or a potter. I'd like that.....

 

[Josh Oakley]

And not necessarily a "carpenter." The Greek word is "tekton," which means "craftsman," or "builder." Could've been a mason, a jeweler or a tinsmith......or a potter. I'd like that.....

As my mother likes to put it: "A carpenter? Jews aren't usually carpenters; we HIRE carpenters!"

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