Disrespect? Am I wrong here?

[WaterGal]

I think you need to stop watching so many kung fu movies.

There's nothing wrong with organizing a tournament with other schools in your area - at least if you belong to a style that does tournaments (not sure about kung fu?) - if it's done in a friendly and cooperative way. But if you're just challenging your competitors because you look down on them and want to make them look bad, that's just being a jerk, IMO.

 

[Mass]

Without reading what others have already informed you, I will say this: Train at your school, worry what happens at your school and enjoy what you are doing. It does not matter what any other school is doing, what rank they have or what art they are teaching....if you enjoy what you are doing and learning, that's all that matters. I personally don't care how many stripes they have on their belt compaired to mine, if they can't perform in their system, them shame on them.

 

[Argus]

Disrespectful? Not at all.

Half a century ago, challenge matches called "Beimo" were an honored tradition in Chinese martial arts. These were bare-knuckle "skill comparison" matches with few or no rules (but usually a consensus on when a fight was over; according to WSL at least, the "ground and pound" you see in MMA didn't really happen.) The main purpose of these matches was for martial artists to learn to use their arts in an entirely realistic, combative setting. However, it also kind of helped to filter out bad schools, as when a student of one school defeated the teacher of another, that teacher's school tended to lose its reputation. A number of very humble, and highly respected figures in my art (Wing Chun) were famous for their challenge matches.

Personally, I think we have too much an aversion to what we percieve as "violence" these days, and too much emphasis on pure "self defense." Someone who has never used his art in a truly combative sense still does not understand it; and if two people accept the prospect of getting beaten up to learn and better understand their arts, I don't really see anything wrong with that as long as they still conduct themselves in a civilized manner.

EDIT: I should probably point out, however, in the context of today's day and age, there are serious legal issues to consider here, so I would not recommend challenging another school to this kind of match for that reason alone. I'm more just expressing the sentiment that it's somewhat unfortunate that it doesn't happen any more, so a lot of frauds and under-qualified people get away with teaching without ever being put to the test.

If, however, you can organize a match using gloves, and in a safe and legal environment, I don't see anything wrong with that.

 

[Tez3]

Well, there's a challenge and there's a challenge! Challenging a school you believe has inferior students who aren't able to fight is, as someone else has pointed out, bullying. Challenging them to teach them a lesson is dishonourable, as is challenging them under false pretences.
Minding your own business is however the honourable thing to do is the OP's situation, as an almost complete beginner he isn't in the position to judge anything very much in martial arts.

 

[Argus]

I suppose that's a good point, Tez.

I feel bad for the students that are being deceived, though. How much money, time, and effort might they waste before they come to that realization?

 

[Tez3]

I suppose that's a good point, Tez.

I feel bad for the students that are being deceived, though. How much money, time, and effort might they waste before they come to that realization?

Well, we don't know they are being deceived though, we don't don't know they can't fight or that they aren't receiving value for their money. A lot of McDojos while they are sharp will the billing and the money side actually do offer good training. I suppose because of my job I'm very wary of 'hearsay' which is basically what the OP's comments are. We don't know if they are offered belts in return for bringing in students or not so I'd rather say that minding one's own business is the order of the day for a beginner.

 

[tshadowchaser]

So you and a friend join different school, in the area and after a couple years you want to compare what has happened in that time. Your have graded a couple of times and may have a green belt(sash) and may not make black for 5 to 7 more years, and he is now a black belt. You attend 5 times a week and he goes twice. He pays $150 a month . You pay $50. He takes private lessons once a week for $50 a session , you have never had a private lesson except for the time your instructor asked you to show up on a Saturday and work out with a few of the other students. He pays for each test and then may have to but a new patch or belt and you test for free when your instructor says its time but your patch stays the same and he may even award you the belt.
The question becomes are you happy with your training and are you learning an art you want to learn.


You most remember that most (and I do say MOST not all) instructors have had some martial arts instruction and may have have come up the ranks in a good system. Some may be darn good at fighting even if their training is questionable. Some may be excellent at getting people to preform and be natural motivators. Other than the facts of their true history in the arts they must be doing something people want in order to stay open and have people keep paying.


Now personally I think there are many instructors and school owners that need to be taken out back and have the crap beat out of them and their schools closed because of the stuff they teach but I realize that this is not the 60's and now such actions will end you in court.
So I tell people to question the background of the instructor and system. If they find the instructor claims to be disabled for the last 20 years with a back injury but he has studied 3 different systems in that time and reached master in all of them I might want to know where he tested and under whom. I would want to talk in some way with some of those at those testings ( OH they all closed their schools, retired, died every single person he ever trained with YA right). Or maybe he is 22 and has a master in what ever he is teaching (not impossible these days), just find out who he trained with and check with them and that organization. Trouble is no one wants to go to all that trouble to find out if an instructor is legit.


So if your happy with your training and your friend is happy with his great you both are getting what you want. A friendly get together between schools for mutual benefit in learning is one thing but challenging another school is out. A challenge these days shows disrespect to your school and has been said before stinks of bullying and a better than you attitude.

 

[Argus]

> Tez3

Well, I'd have to agree with you; it depends on how good of a reason the OP has for doubting the legitimacy of the school. Hearsay is something to always be wary of, though when it starts to come from multiple, honest sources, it's right to be concerned.

> tshadowchaser

I have mixed feelings. I don't really buy into the "if it's what people want, it's okay" argument. If they're not being taught substance but they think that they are, even if they are enjoying themselves and like their teacher, they are still being deceived and robbed of what they're paying for. And they might go on to honestly teach themselves, and unknowingly rob more unsuspecting students, if they don't come to that realization. This seems to happen a lot in martial arts, and it devalues martial arts as a whole and contributes to the general poor quality of instruction that so many people receive.

But then, I would make the same argument for "foreign" restaurants. Most Americans have no idea what real Japanese or Chinese cuisine is, and are happily deceived every day. And a lot of them might not even like most authentic dishes even if they tried them. But I enjoy cooking with my foreign friends, and much prefer anything that they prepare to what you find in a local restaurant, so it makes me rather sad to see that quality lost and marketed on a large scale.

 

[Dirty Dog]

OK, a little bit of background information.....

I go to a small Kung Fu school a few miles away from my home. A half-mile further down the road, there is a school which has, what can only be described as "dubious" standards.

And you know they're "dubious" how?

The other school is part of a franchise of schools, and has no governing body covering their gradings, whereas the school I attend is part of the CMAA of Great Britain.

I'd say that whoever they got their franchise from gets to decide how their gradings are performed. How do you know that your system is any better?

I have been told by former pupils of the franchised school, that they offer "fast track" ways to black belt and, for a price, will progress you at a heightened pace. Also, for every set number of new students you introduce, they will upgrade you a belt.

And heresay is such a useful tool for finding out facts. Have you bothered to confirm any of this with the school, or are you just spreading rumours?

Since the school I attend has none of those 'offers', and prefers the students to earn their gradings, I suggested to our Sifu that we should send them a friendly challenge to some sparring bouts (although I think they would probably decline). Mostly to see if their teaching methods produce useful fighters.

I hope your sifu laughed at you. Or slapped you upside your silly head. Or both.

In talking to a friend of mine (who is Chinese) He became highly argumentative, and said that this was disrespectful to the franchised club, mentioning that it would be improper to challenge them, as Kung Fu should be used as self-defence and not an aggressive style.

Sounds like a sensible fellow.

My opinion was "Why practice a martial art if you never get the chance to use it?"

I use my martial arts training every single day. And on most (and the best) of them, it doesn't require any sort of confrontation at all.

Plus, Kung Fu movies seem to be full of different styles fighting for dominance and to see who is the best.

Apparently, you've never figured out that movies aren't real. Allow me to explain. Movies are not real. Nobody can catch a bullet in their teeth. Being shot won't cause you to go flying backwards. Chipmunks cannot sing. Smurfs don't really exist. Neither does Santa Claus.

So, in order to settle this, I'd like your opinions. Am I wrong to want to challenge this other club or is this part of the natural order of things?

Your comments are invited. Thanks.

You are wrong. And more than a little foolish.

 

[jasonbrinn]