Sifu is using cell phone a lot during class - advice needed.

[kez]

A BIG thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment and post so far. A lot of very good points raised.
It seems that for many its a simple case of if the value received does not appear to be matching the money paid then its not worth it. However some, and this is also valid, think that the value of a teacher is not in necessarily being there all the time, but in teaching the right thing at the right time.

With regards to the other students. I would say the quality is patchy. Most are awesome, seem to have a great attitude and proficiency, although I have noticed a couple of glaring exceptions - for example one student I was training with; a green sash (relatively senior, within the spectrum of abilities in this class) was clearly performing basic exercises with very poor fundamental technique. In my mind these things should have been addressed at a much earlier level. If this doesn't happen I don't see how a student can have a solid base on which to build more advanced techniques. Martial arts is more than just a series of moves you learn.

I would like to direct the discussion now towards HOW I would go about queuing the teacher about his approach. While it may not be right to complain directly without spending much time in the class, I do believe it is reasonable to ask his teaching ethos - to which I think his answer will reflect a lot of his attitude and caring.

For example:

Sifu - I notice you are quite hands off with your students and seem to let the class run itself to a degree. I am not used to this method of teaching and was wondering if you could elaborate on what you believe is the best way for a student to learn?

OK, it's not poetry - but you get the jist... thoughts?

 

[jasonbrinn]

How good or bad this particular instructor happens to be is completely irrelevant. The fact is that the original poster is paying money. He is not satisfied with what he is paying for. Therefore, I advised him to leave and find what he is looking for. It doesn't matter if the instructor in question is the second coming of Bruce Lee, if someone is not satisfied with what they're paying for, stop paying.

Two things here I know to be true from my experience:

1. One day of non-committed teaching from a master can be worth years of dedicated hands on training from a run-of-the-mill instructor (been there done that).

2. If you don't think the teacher's attention is not worth it then you are either right and should leave or you are wrong and not good enough yet to see its true value and thus should probably leave.

Again, there are places that give a tremendous value for the dollar with the value cloaked in crazy training that seems unpredictable and less than normal until revealed and then there are places that dazzle you with amenities and instruction at every step that aren't worth the mere time and vice versa. Don't judge a MARTIAL ARTS instructor by "how" he teaches and especially not "how" YOU think HE should teach you - what do YOU know anyway?!? Judge a MARTIAL ARTS instructor by how well his teachings work in a fight for you, his students may be crap or not dedicated and the teacher himself may suck but if what he teaches works for you then you are golden. If he is awesome and his students too but you cant do diddly with what he shows you then what difference does anything else make anyway.

 

[jasonbrinn]

A BIG thank you to everyone who has taken the time to comment and post so far. A lot of very good points raised.
It seems that for many its a simple case of if the value received does not appear to be matching the money paid then its not worth it. However some, and this is also valid, think that the value of a teacher is not in necessarily being there all the time, but in teaching the right thing at the right time.

With regards to the other students. I would say the quality is patchy. Most are awesome, seem to have a great attitude and proficiency, although I have noticed a couple of glaring exceptions - for example one student I was training with; a green sash (relatively senior, within the spectrum of abilities in this class) was clearly performing basic exercises with very poor fundamental technique. In my mind these things should have been addressed at a much earlier level. If this doesn't happen I don't see how a student can have a solid base on which to build more advanced techniques. Martial arts is more than just a series of moves you learn.

I would like to direct the discussion now towards HOW I would go about queuing the teacher about his approach. While it may not be right to complain directly without spending much time in the class, I do believe it is reasonable to ask his teaching ethos - to which I think his answer will reflect a lot of his attitude and caring.

For example:

Sifu - I notice you are quite hands off with your students and seem to let the class run itself to a degree. I am not used to this method of teaching and was wondering if you could elaborate on what you believe is the best way for a student to learn?

OK, it's not poetry - but you get the jist... thoughts?

THIS ^^^ This is the best thing yet my friend. If you don't understand then ask and always ask honesty and from the heart. You might not get the answer you want but you WILL get the answer YOU need at this time.

Best wishes

Jason Brinn

 

[clfsean]

Feel free to correct me, but that sounds more like you guys are just practicing together with some supervision. I think that's useful (and can be a lot of fun), but to me that's different from a formal class. I think in a formal class, the teacher should be at the very least "watching like a hawk", if not actually demonstrating the techniques or doing the exercises with the students.

Not really... that's just very old school CMA. Not every did it that way, but more than plenty have & still do.

 

[Dirty Dog]

1. One day of non-committed teaching from a master can be worth years of dedicated hands on training from a run-of-the-mill instructor (been there done that).

One thing I know to be true from my experience:
A Master doesn't do non-committed teaching.

 

[jasonbrinn]

One thing I know to be true from my experience:
A Master doesn't do non-committed teaching.

I was speaking in terms of the context of this thread. I agree with you but what happens is non-Masters think they know how masters should teach sometimes and what happens more times than not regular folk think they can tell who's the master and who is not....which leaves the question begging.....

WHO'S DA MASTA?

 

[Drasken]

Well to put in my two cents. I've got a couple things to bring up.

1: Is it possible that some of this use of a phone could be making videos of students for later use?

2: Are the more senior students supposed to be tasked with watching the less experienced students?

3: Does the instructor actually give advice or criticism of technique or just completely ignoring the class overall?
I know that many teachers will not let students feel like they're being watched, because it often makes newer students feel nervous and othus mess up more, which can interfere with the learning process. This also serves another function, of letting the teacher see which students cut corners. Many instructors that do this are paying more attention than you realize.

However, if he is indeed charging money and ignoring the class then simply stop taking classes from him. If you pay someone to do a job and find them on their phone instead, you would not hesitate to fire them would you?
Saying that he is the teacher and he can do what he pleases is both the right and wrong approach at the same time.
Yes, it is his school. Yes he CAN do as he pleases. But if you feel like your money is wasted due to bad instruction, then why keep paying? If he is doing a bad job, eventually he will have no students left.
My advice is that you are paying him for a service. You have the right to RESPECTFULLY ask about his methods, and see if he is indeed paying attention. If you are unsatisfied, then leave. Never fear asking a legitimate question when you are paying money. But it's more about how the question is asked. Just be respectful, allow his explination and go from there.

 

[Flying Crane]

Feel free to correct me, but that sounds more like you guys are just practicing together with some supervision. I think that's useful (and can be a lot of fun), but to me that's different from a formal class. I think in a formal class, the teacher should be at the very least "watching like a hawk", if not actually demonstrating the techniques or doing the exercises with the students.

It's both, actually. It is a formal "class" session, but we the students are all at a point in our development where we do need to be responsible for our own training, and we should be able to train and practice effectively without Sifu directing every moment of it. We help each other work thru things and we all grow in that way. But Sifu also gives extremely valuable instruction and corrections as well. That is a very strong component of the evening. Our sessions are generally about 2 1/2 hours long, sometimes longer, so there is definitely time for both of these aspects of the training. We might work together as a group for an hour or so, and then Sifu comes out and gives correction and instruction and might spend a good hour or more doing that, so it really is significant.

I understand why teachers often believe that they need to guide every moment of the class session. Especially with real newbies, they need more guidance to avoid developing bad habits. But I believe this can be overdone and it can teach the student how to follow someone else all the time and never really internalize the lessons and the material to take ownership of it. Time working without direct guidance is extremely important in developing one's skills and understanding in the martial arts. I believe that Sifu is watching to see if we are really doing that, and that helps him judge where we are in our development and in our commitment to our training.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It's both, actually. It is a formal "class" session, but we the students are all at a point in our development where we do need to be responsible for our own training, and we should be able to train and practice effectively without Sifu directing every moment of it. We help each other work thru things and we all grow in that way. But Sifu also gives extremely valuable instruction and corrections as well. That is a very strong component of the evening. Our sessions are generally about 2 1/2 hours long, sometimes longer, so there is definitely time for both of these aspects of the training. We might work together as a group for an hour or so, and then Sifu comes out and gives correction and instruction and might spend a good hour or more doing that, so it really is significant.

I understand why teachers often believe that they need to guide every moment of the class session. Especially with real newbies, they need more guidance to avoid developing bad habits. But I believe this can be overdone and it can teach the student how to follow someone else all the time and never really internalize the lessons and the material to take ownership of it. Time working without direct guidance is extremely important in developing one's skills and understanding in the martial arts. I believe that Sifu is watching to see if we are really doing that, and that helps him judge where we are in our development and in our commitment to our training.

I can tell you my Yang Taiji sifu watches the class to see if you are practicing or not and he can tell and if you are you will get more correction than if you are not. Hiowever he is much more visibly involved in his beginner class than he is appears to be in his advanced class and that tends to fool a few that beleive he is not watching. the two classes are supposed to be 2 hours and the beginner class is 1 hour but the advanced class can be 1 to 1.5 hours and he and I have been there as much as an hour after that. Those are the times I tend to get thrown around, knocked down and joint locked alot :EG:

 

[ballen0351]

At the end of the day its your money your paying him. If your not happy with the return on your investment stop making the investment. People forget sometimes that yes it his school but he's working for you. Your paying him for a service. If you took your car to get an oil change and were not happy with the service would you go back? If your happy with the instruction stay and keep paying. If your not look elsewhere try another school see if its any different and then judge your current school. Its obviously bothersome to you so I'd go try some other schools see if you can find a better use for your money.

 

[WaterGal]

One thing I know to be true from my experience:
A Master doesn't do non-committed teaching.

Master means you have a certain level of black belt (I'm not sure to what degree that varies from style to style), not that you're committed or a good teacher. I've known some masters that were pretty complacent in how they taught.

But ideally, yes. A Master should have a high level of skill and knowledge to pass on, and a good teacher should be committed and attentive. And somebody that's both is the best person to study with.

 

[WaterGal]

It's both, actually. It is a formal "class" session, but we the students are all at a point in our development where we do need to be responsible for our own training, and we should be able to train and practice effectively without Sifu directing every moment of it. We help each other work thru things and we all grow in that way. But Sifu also gives extremely valuable instruction and corrections as well. That is a very strong component of the evening. Our sessions are generally about 2 1/2 hours long, sometimes longer, so there is definitely time for both of these aspects of the training. We might work together as a group for an hour or so, and then Sifu comes out and gives correction and instruction and might spend a good hour or more doing that, so it really is significant.

I understand why teachers often believe that they need to guide every moment of the class session. Especially with real newbies, they need more guidance to avoid developing bad habits. But I believe this can be overdone and it can teach the student how to follow someone else all the time and never really internalize the lessons and the material to take ownership of it. Time working without direct guidance is extremely important in developing one's skills and understanding in the martial arts. I believe that Sifu is watching to see if we are really doing that, and that helps him judge where we are in our development and in our commitment to our training.

That sounds like a good format to me. I do think it's important to take some time to work on your own/with peers, to practice skills and work on applying what you know in different ways and make connections between different techniques and drills. You can learn an awful lot that way. But getting hands-on time with the teacher like the second half of your class is vital too, and it sounds like they're not doing much of that at the OP's school.

 

[Mauthos]

I must admit, I do use my mobile during class whilst teaching....


but only to check the time and to use it as a stopwatch during exercise drills.

Personally I like to be involved in the class and even if my students are comfortable with the material they are practicing I tend to wander around, watching them all, making corrections, or simply being on hand if they have any questions.

As an instructor my personal way of teaching is very hands on from my newbies right up to my advanced guys.

However, playing devils advocate, a teacher that appears to ignore his class isn't necessarily doing that and may just be trying to make his observation appear subtle to maybe remove any pressure that a student may feel by being watched. Every teacher will have met students like these, who, when they feel like they are under scrutiny from their instructor, fall to pieces, but when they think he is otherwise occupied are perfectly fine and fully capable of performing.

Also, a lot of CMA instructors have always had this almost hands off approach to teaching. Using a film as a reference, IP Man, shows, um, IP Man explaining a technique, then sitting down with tea and a paper whilst his students practice. At one point in time this really wasn't uncommon.

 

[geezer]

Also, a lot of CMA instructors have always had this almost hands off approach to teaching. Using a film as a reference, IP Man, shows, um, IP Man explaining a technique, then sitting down with tea and a paper whilst his students practice. At one point in time this really wasn't uncommon.

My old Chinese sifu used to teach like this. But then he actually did train under Yip Man. Anyway several of us would meet with him and start training, then he would go of to the side and have tea and work on his writing or whatever, appearing to pay little attention to our movements. Then suddenly he would get up saying something like "No, no! Not like that! This is the problem. You practice and practice but all the time are doing some funny movement. I tell you the real secret is that you must... Now pay attention to this..." And the real lesson would begin. Our sessions could go on for several hours like this. Then we'd stop an take him out to dinner or on some crazy errand. That was what we came to call training "the Chinese way".

 

[J W]

What is the role of the students at this school? Do they spend much time working with and teaching their juniors? Or does the bulk of instruction come directly from sifu? Hard to say based on your post whether you have an "old-school" CMA teacher or just a lazy one, but if alot of the instruction is done from student to student, then your sifu may not need to constantly be on the floor.

Do you feel that you are learning good kung fu, or does the training feel sub-par?

On a side note, people spend waaaay too much time on their phones.

 

[Flying Crane]

That sounds like a good format to me. I do think it's important to take some time to work on your own/with peers, to practice skills and work on applying what you know in different ways and make connections between different techniques and drills. You can learn an awful lot that way. But getting hands-on time with the teacher like the second half of your class is vital too, and it sounds like they're not doing much of that at the OP's school.

I agree, actually. It sounds like the sifu may be disengaged, tho without further info it's hard to know for sure.

If he's an older sifu from China, he may not be as disengaged as people assume, he may be teaching the old way. If he's a younger guy from the US or something, then he may just be a lazy and distracted teacher.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Master means you have a certain level of black belt (I'm not sure to what degree that varies from style to style), not that you're committed or a good teacher. I've known some masters that were pretty complacent in how they taught.

But ideally, yes. A Master should have a high level of skill and knowledge to pass on, and a good teacher should be committed and attentive. And somebody that's both is the best person to study with.

Being a Master is not merely the number of stripes on your belt. I stand by my statement. A Master teaches. A master can play with his cell phone.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts there are no colored belt ranks or any "obvious" ranking system at all for that matter

 

[oaktree]

I personally don't care if my teacher uses his phone
Or looks at girls during class. The question for me is
Can my teacher correct me when I need correction, answer
Questions I need answered and give me material I need to progress.

I have had teachers who spent a great deal of time
Doing their own thing but when I needed a question answered
They stop and answered my question. I had a teacher
Who would do his own thing but later he would ask
To see what he taught me and correct me.

If someone feels they are not getting the quality they want
Then find another teacher that fits your style.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I have been fortunate throughout the years to train with some of the best instructors in the world. Fortunately for me they were all engaged in the teaching or training that was going on. This style of teaching described by the original poster just would not cut it with anyone that I train with nor with me!