dislocated knee first day of MT

[JR 137]

i tore my LCL doing BJJ with a guy who was trying to get mount and decided to grab my leg and twist it like tearing off a Turkey thigh on Thanksgiving.

That one sucks. But it typically heals itself if you rest it and stay within a pain-free range of motion for several weeks. Same with the MCL.

 

[FriedRice]

Don’t put too much stock into the surgeon didn’t care due to insurance. They’re going to get paid, and most have no idea what your insurance is; their office people handle that stuff. I’d chalk it up to the guy just being a douche bag. There’s certainly no shortage of them around. I’ve got quite a few stories of their ways, including a guy I told my father NOT to see, but he did anyway.

There’s no way anyone would miss a complete ACL rupture on an MRI. When it completely tears, it doesn’t get cut in half and flop around, so to speak; it explodes. When it ruptures, there’s nothing left but a small stump, kind of like the stump left on a clam shell after you’ve pulled the clam out. On an MRI, you’d see no trace of an ACL, hence making missing it impossible.

I’ve never heard of an “ACL edema.” That’s a new one to me. If you had/have ACL damage, you either partially tore it, or what is quite rare in my experience (not sure how truly rare it actually is) is you may have an avulsion if the ACL, which is basically the ACL pulling itself partially off the bone, either taking a layer of bone with it or not. I’ve only seen one of those.

As far as I know, the ACL doesn’t repair itself very well, if at all. Hence why I said everyone I saw with a partial tear would’ve been better off with a full rupture. I’ve rehabbed them, and quite honestly it was a waste of everyone’s time. It’s ok for an office type person who plays bar league softball a few Sundays a year, but that’s about it IMO.

There’s really no way for me to tell what’s going on in your knee without putting my hands on it and watching you walk around. What you described as far as how it happened could lead to anything - ACL, MCL, LCL, meniscus, articular cartilage, etc. The MCL and LCL repair themselves, the ACL, PCL, meniscus and articular cartilage typically don’t.

“Locking” of your knee puts up a meniscus red flag, as does instability somewhat. The instability, especially when pivoting/turning red flags ACL damage and subsequent muscle atrophy. But that’s all just spitballing to be honest.

See an orthopedist. Ask him questions. Don’t let him yeah yeah yeah you. They typically think you know what they mean or that you won’t underst if they get technical. Tell them what you do for a living (teach MA?) and it’s hindering you. Tell him it feels like it’s getting to the point where you can’t work anymore. Ask for a referral to a physical therapist. If he says you don’t need one, ask why.

It’s hard describing how these guys’ brains work. I’ve been around a lot of them, so it’s easier for me to weed through and see the nonsense. It’s also easier for me to communicate with them than most people off the street.

Edit: Last thought - primary care doctors suck at this stuff, no matter how well intentioned they are. If you need a referral from your primary doc, don’t take no for an answer. You’ve been dealing with it for long enough.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me out. That's a lot of info. I'm going to re-read this a few times and then go get it checked out again. Thanks again.

 

[JR 137]

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me out. That's a lot of info. I'm going to re-read this a few times and then go get it checked out again. Thanks again.

Sorry, just a few more thoughts...

I missed the grinding as you described it. That could be a simple thing like chondromalacia, where the cartilage behind the kneecap wears down. Not a big deal and it’s quite easy to take care of; it sounds worse than it really is. Or it could be articular cartilage damage. Articular cartilage is the cartilage that covers the ends of the joints in each bone so they don’t grind against each other. That could range from no big deal to serious stuff.

Again, just spitballing.

I forgot to ask... how long ago did it initially happen?

 

[verynicehowmuch]

I would disagree with your underatanding of what happened. Conditioning, from what i can tell, isnt the issue. Conditioning could help prevent bruising or even fractures, but what youre describing sounds like it would happen regardless of conditioning. Unfortunately, and this is not your fault, you don't know how to kick/defend properly against a kick with contact. You dont know the angle to have your leg, and thus your knee, or how to distribute your weight, so when a kick came, your leg was at a bad position and your knee dislocated. The solution to this is not conditioning (although you absolutely will need that if the MT class is full/hard contact), but learning how to properly theow a kick, when to defend, and how to properly avoid or check a kick. Even then you can still seriously hurt yourself (check out anderson silva ufc 168 for an example), but for the most part you should be okay.

That's what I meant when I said conditioning. Basically training myself how to kick/defend properly against a kick with contact and properly position my leg etc to prevent it from happening again. And of course knowing how to take a hit in general.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's what I meant when I said conditioning. Basically training myself how to kick/defend properly against a kick with contact and properly position my leg etc to prevent it from happening again. And of course knowing how to take a hit in general.

I would say it was extremely irresponsible for them to allow you to spar with them on your first night, without having spent some time training with them to learn their methods and assess your abilities.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What can I do to prevent this from happening again?

1. always make sure your knee is always bent, when sparring,
   
2. Never straighten it out fully when dealing with kickers unless you are out of their kicking range or too far withing their kicking range for them to kick
3. You can only ignore the first 2 rules when you aren't kicking leg during sparring.

When I taught kung fu, I used to demonstrated the value of having a bent knee by letting people kick me in the knee while I was in a good fighting stance (knees at 45 degree angle). I was able to take multiple strikes without having serious damage to my knee only because my knee was bent. Bent knees don't bend backwards and that knee cap doesn't move around when it's bent. The 45 degree angle prevents the knee from moving backwards from a forward impact. The general rule that I set for myself is to not bend my knee more than 45 degrees, and to bend it enough to where knee will know longer move backwards on impact, which less than 45 degrees but I don't know how much less. 45 degrees is the safe bet.

This is the only way(that I know of) to prevent this from happening again. Anything else will have the risk. The #1 and #2 is the only 100% way that I know of that will prevent a dislocation, because the structure makes "impossible" for that knee cap to move. You could smash a 20lb weight into the front of the knee(don't do it) and your knee would probably break before it dislocates. It's the main reason you see that deep stance in almost every martial art system (except some versions of wing chun, boxing, and sports Muay Thai.)
Notice he keeps a bent knee.

This the sports Muay Thai. Notice the straight legs that you see from time to time. But also notice that they bend their knees a lot when they think they are going to get kicked in the leg. The risk here is getting caught with your legs straight. By keeping the knees bent you'll greatly reduce the risk of suffering dislocation or hyper-extension of the knee

Most of the things that prevent dislocation focus on good structure and good form. In my opinion this one of the focus points students should concentrate on during form / kata training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I took a kick to the knee and it got dislocated.
It caused a small fracture and also a lot of swelling. I can't bend it and I'm in a leg brace but I can walk fine

Like others have stated.

1. Rest
2. Heal
3. Don't rush the healing process
4. Follow the doctor's orders
5. Rehab
6. Follow the doctor's orders

Make sure everything is healed. Feeling good is not the same as completely healed. You knee may feel good, but it doesn't mean that it's completely healed. It just means that you won't have a lot of pain in the healing process which is good because pain slows downs the dealing process and stresses the body.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would say it was extremely irresponsible for them to allow you to spar with them on your first night, without having spent some time training with them to learn their methods and assess your abilities.

I would think that they would still be able to access a person's training and abilities within the first 5 minutes of sparring. It only takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get "full report" on someone I'm sparring against. Within the first minute, I know if I can increase the pressure and skill use or if I need to tone my abilities down to match my opponent's abilities. I've been to a Muay Thai gym in Maryland and it was the same way with them. They had no interest in hurting someone and the more advanced person had to match the abilities of the lesser skilled person. Especially if the person was new to the gym.

There may have been some ego present. Students sometimes get into the mindset that they are going to show someone from another system how good Muay Thai is. This may be the case if the OP mentioned that the used to do Tang Soo Do. While most students are like this, some get on that "secret mission" to "defeat another style." I don't know if this is the case, but I've been through enough sparring and that nonsense to know that it's possible.

 

[JowGaWolf]

but in this instance your from another style so your prior action or reaction put you in a bad spot for that kick.

This is possible too. Sometimes a reaction will put a person in a worst position. I see a lot of this in TMA simply because of the Style A vs Style A sparring that goes on. Their reaction may be the correct one when the system is the same, but it could be the worst thing to do against another system.

At first I instinctively made no contact (which is sadly what I'm used to but trying to change) but after a few minutes I got used to both taking and receiving hard kicks to the body/legs. And honestly I was getting my *** handed to me but I loved the thrill of actually taking a hit, which is why I wanted to try MT in the first place. That and I wanted to learn to stop over-telegraphing and throwing too many kicks.

News flash. You can learn and experience this without taking Muay Thai. You just need a few like minded people who know how to control their power and who aren't interested in knocking your head off.

What eventually caused the "dislocation" though was my stance being too wide

yeah wide stances make it difficult when going against other strikers who kick legs. My general rule is Wide Stance for Grappling, and a medium width stance for striking, (not to narrow and not to wide). If the stance is too wide then it makes it easier for kickers to safely kick your leg. You can fight in a wide stance with strikers and leg kickers, but you have to take a different approach to dealing with the kick and a lot of it is being able to take the force of the kick head one and moving forward. There are less punishing way to learn to deal with low kicks, than using a wide stance.

Basically training myself how to kick/defend properly against a kick with contact and properly position my leg etc to prevent it from happening again. And of course knowing how to take a hit in general.

All of this is means different things based on the system that you are training. Muay Thai has different approaches to dealing with kicks than Tang Soo Doo.

This is the probably the intensity level you should have gotten. If you were sparring harder than this then the MT guy should have eased up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would think that they would still be able to access a person's training and abilities within the first 5 minutes of sparring. It only takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get "full report" on someone I'm sparring against. Within the first minute, I know if I can increase the pressure and skill use or if I need to tone my abilities down to match my opponent's abilities. I've been to a Muay Thai gym in Maryland and it was the same way with them. They had no interest in hurting someone and the more advanced person had to match the abilities of the lesser skilled person. Especially if the person was new to the gym.

There may have been some ego present. Students sometimes get into the mindset that they are going to show someone from another system how good Muay Thai is. This may be the case if the OP mentioned that the used to do Tang Soo Do. While most students are like this, some get on that "secret mission" to "defeat another style." I don't know if this is the case, but I've been through enough sparring and that nonsense to know that it's possible.

It also depends a bit on the sparring. Full contact vs. Light contact vs. No contact, i would be more cautious in full contact not knowing someones abilities (pair them up with a senior stident/instructor first). But like you said, the instructor should be able to tell pretty early on a persons abilities.

 

[FriedRice]

Sorry, just a few more thoughts...

I missed the grinding as you described it. That could be a simple thing like chondromalacia, where the cartilage behind the kneecap wears down. Not a big deal and it’s quite easy to take care of; it sounds worse than it really is. Or it could be articular cartilage damage. Articular cartilage is the cartilage that covers the ends of the joints in each bone so they don’t grind against each other. That could range from no big deal to serious stuff.

Again, just spitballing.

I forgot to ask... how long ago did it initially happen?

I was going to ask you about that again, thanks.

The injury happened 23 months ago.

This grinding in the knee that sounds like gravel inside, I didn't notice until like 15 months ago. It's in the injured knee and it could have made that noise since the injury, but I just didn't notice nor checked the knee like that to hear it.....just happened to, one day....and kept checking it periodically.

Before the injury, it was always my other knee (right) that was the weaker one as it was the one doing most of the offense in training. But it made no noises.

 

[FriedRice]

I would think that they would still be able to access a person's training and abilities within the first 5 minutes of sparring. It only takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get "full report" on someone I'm sparring against. Within the first minute, I know if I can increase the pressure and skill use or if I need to tone my abilities down to match my opponent's abilities. I've been to a Muay Thai gym in Maryland and it was the same way with them. They had no interest in hurting someone and the more advanced person had to match the abilities of the lesser skilled person. Especially if the person was new to the gym.

There may have been some ego present. Students sometimes get into the mindset that they are going to show someone from another system how good Muay Thai is. This may be the case if the OP mentioned that the used to do Tang Soo Do. While most students are like this, some get on that "secret mission" to "defeat another style." I don't know if this is the case, but I've been through enough sparring and that nonsense to know that it's possible.

What gym did you spar at in Maryland?

 

[verynicehowmuch]

I would think that they would still be able to access a person's training and abilities within the first 5 minutes of sparring. It only takes me 2 or 3 minutes to get "full report" on someone I'm sparring against. Within the first minute, I know if I can increase the pressure and skill use or if I need to tone my abilities down to match my opponent's abilities. I've been to a Muay Thai gym in Maryland and it was the same way with them. They had no interest in hurting someone and the more advanced person had to match the abilities of the lesser skilled person. Especially if the person was new to the gym.

There may have been some ego present. Students sometimes get into the mindset that they are going to show someone from another system how good Muay Thai is. This may be the case if the OP mentioned that the used to do Tang Soo Do. While most students are like this, some get on that "secret mission" to "defeat another style." I don't know if this is the case, but I've been through enough sparring and that nonsense to know that it's possible.

I knew full-well in advance that my style and training was no match for a competent Muay Thai fighter. I went in to try out a different style I've heard a lot of good things about, not to prove anything. My intention was to get a taste of it (which I suppose I did) and hopefully train in it full time alongside TSD and possibly make a gradual shift. And getting my *** handed to me was something I expected, but getting a dislocated patella wasn't. I think I made a poor decision trying out a type of sparring I didn't know the true power of beforehand (and of course not knowing rules of leg positioning/bending), but it seems like any martial arts studio should have an ample period to assess one's abilities before even letting them spar, at least against more advanced students. Not that I'm blaming them for my mistake, of course.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I knew full-well in advance that my style and training was no match for a competent Muay Thai fighter. I went in to try out a different style I've heard a lot of good things about, not to prove anything. My intention was to get a taste of it (which I suppose I did) and hopefully train in it full time alongside TSD and possibly make a gradual shift. And getting my *** handed to me was something I expected, but getting a dislocated patella wasn't. I think I made a poor decision trying out a type of sparring I didn't know the true power of beforehand (and of course not knowing rules of leg positioning/bending), but it seems like any martial arts studio should have an ample period to assess one's abilities before even letting them spar, at least against more advanced students. Not that I'm blaming them for my mistake, of course.

He meant the opposite. Not that you had an ego, but the other guy might have. Some people have this mentality of "hes coming here to fight us, i need to prove our dojo/gym is better", no matter how far that may be from the truth.

 

[JR 137]

I knew full-well in advance that my style and training was no match for a competent Muay Thai fighter. I went in to try out a different style I've heard a lot of good things about, not to prove anything. My intention was to get a taste of it (which I suppose I did) and hopefully train in it full time alongside TSD and possibly make a gradual shift. And getting my *** handed to me was something I expected, but getting a dislocated patella wasn't. I think I made a poor decision trying out a type of sparring I didn't know the true power of beforehand (and of course not knowing rules of leg positioning/bending), but it seems like any martial arts studio should have an ample period to assess one's abilities before even letting them spar, at least against more advanced students. Not that I'm blaming them for my mistake, of course.

I didn’t want to say it, but you started it

It was a pretty big fail on your part and the gym’s part. How the gym let you jump into the ring without any knowledge of your skill level is beyond me. You could’ve been some thug who was only out to hurt the owner’s fighters or you could’ve been someone with zero knowledge and skill and gotten killed. Very stupid move on their part.

And on your part... well, I say this in a genuinely good natured and friendly way with no judgement... I think you figured out why you shouldn’t have gotten in the ring.

But if that was the stupidest thing you’ve ever done, you’re doing pretty good in life. We’ve all done some pretty dumb $hit that could’ve gotten us killed. At 42, I look back at a lot of things I did in my teens and 20s and wonder who was looking out for me, because there were definitely some times where I could’ve been a Darwin Awards contender.

 

[verynicehowmuch]

I didn’t want to say it, but you started it

It was a pretty big fail on your part and the gym’s part. How the gym let you jump into the ring without any knowledge of your skill level is beyond me. You could’ve been some thug who was only out to hurt the owner’s fighters or you could’ve been someone with zero knowledge and skill and gotten killed. Very stupid move on their part.

And on your part... well, I say this in a genuinely good natured and friendly way with no judgement... I think you figured out why you shouldn’t have gotten in the ring.

But if that was the stupidest thing you’ve ever done, you’re doing pretty good in life. We’ve all done some pretty dumb $hit that could’ve gotten us killed. At 42, I look back at a lot of things I did in my teens and 20s and wonder who was looking out for me, because there were definitely some times where I could’ve been a Darwin Awards contender.

haha yeah I can see now why I shoulda backed out. One positive though is that now I'll be less rambunctious when it comes to fighting.
To be fair though the amount of force leading up to the accident was comfortable for me. I have never taken a real hit to the face/chest/legs but I was getting pummeled left and right without any real pain up until the dislocation happened. It actually felt kind of empowering to take a somewhat powerful - albeit gloved - hit to the face and still keep fighting like nothing happened. This made the dislocation even more disappointing; I was starting to enjoy the sparring and now I have to take a long break from it.
And yeah this might be the stupidest thing I've ever done.

 

[Flying Crane]

I knew full-well in advance that my style and training was no match for a competent Muay Thai fighter. I went in to try out a different style I've heard a lot of good things about, not to prove anything. My intention was to get a taste of it (which I suppose I did) and hopefully train in it full time alongside TSD and possibly make a gradual shift. And getting my *** handed to me was something I expected, but getting a dislocated patella wasn't. I think I made a poor decision trying out a type of sparring I didn't know the true power of beforehand (and of course not knowing rules of leg positioning/bending), but it seems like any martial arts studio should have an ample period to assess one's abilities before even letting them spar, at least against more advanced students. Not that I'm blaming them for my mistake, of course.

If you are footing some expensive medical bills over this, that is what he ought to have liability insurance for. Honestly, I put the lions share of the blame one the school owner. And this is exactly why he better be insured.

The problem is, you might need to sue him to get him to file the insurance claim, and of course that would destroy your chances of training there in the future. Then again, if this is what happens on your first time there, I wonder what other irresponsible behavior they engage in, in the context of their training. Might not be a great place.

 

[JR 137]

If you are footing some expensive medical bills over this, that is what he ought to have liability insurance for. Honestly, I put the lions share of the blame one the school owner. And this is exactly why he better be insured.

The problem is, you might need to sue him to get him to file the insurance claim, and of course that would destroy your chances of training there in the future. Then again, if this is what happens on your first time there, I wonder what other irresponsible behavior they engage in, in the context of their training. Might not be a great place.

Yup. I’m glad you said it. And you put it better than I could have. That was a major F up on the school’s part. They should definitely know better than to put anyone who walks in off the street right into the ring. I can’t think of any good coming out of that, for his students/fighters nor prospective clients. Epic fail. The OP should’ve known better too, but the guys running the place are the alleged experts and carry most of the blame here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What gym did you spar at in Maryland?

It was Crazy 88's Martial Arts Instructors and Coaches | Crazy 88 MMA Gyms
I didn't spar with them when I went there. My brother trains there and I went there to watch when he went training (FYI. I was on vacation). I didn't think they would just allow people to pop into training like that so I didn't bother to dress appropriate. But I watched the entire class and took mental notes, because at that time I was teaching kung fu. I watched advanced fighters (amateur fighters) spar against students that were no where near advanced skill levels

I knew full-well in advance that my style and training was no match for a competent Muay Thai fighter. I went in to try out a different style I've heard a lot of good things about, not to prove anything.

You misunderstood me. You aren't the one to prove anything because you are in "their house." So it's the Muay Thai student that would be carried away and tries to prove that his style is better. The fact that you showed up to train in a different system pretty much says you don't have anything to prove.

And getting my *** handed to me was something I expected, but getting a dislocated patella wasn't.

This is just me and I know that I sound like a broken record and that others will disagree. Sparring is about learning and not about "beating someone," With this mindset there is little risk for injury. Out of all the years of sparring I've done, I've never really hurt anyone during sparring. The only time I think I've cause an injury is when I swept someone during sparring. The sweep didn't have the effect that I was thinking it would have. I made an assumption about the mechanics of the sweep. When I actually did it, I saw that my opponent had injured their groin as a result of the sweeps actual mechanics. Had I known that was how the sweep really works, then I probably wouldn't have done that type of sweep. This was my inexperience and my fault.

The dislocated patella was your opponents fault. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have kicked your leg the way he did, if he knew this would have happened to you. This is his inexperience and his fault. If I went into sparring with the focus of beating people, then there would have been a lot of hurt people and at least one of the people I sparred with would have returned the punishment.

I think I made a poor decision trying out a type of sparring I didn't know the true power of beforehand (and of course not knowing rules of leg positioning/bending), but it seems like any martial arts studio should have an ample period to assess one's abilities before even letting them spar, at least against more advanced students. Not that I'm blaming them for my mistake, of course.

I'm blaming them. It's their training facility and they are responsible for the safety of others. It won't be injury free by any means, but the injuries shouldn't be severe.

Don't feel bad about the "knee bending rule." Most people don't understand it, and even fewer will tell someone to intentionally to kick them in the knee to prove the validity of a stances structure. With me students would kick my knee and I would tell them to kick harder. Each time they would increase the power of the kick. They were always nervous about breaking my leg, I never told them to kick full power. But I had them kick my knee where it was clear to see that the same kick would have damaged a person standing with their legs straight. A lot of the small important stuff is looked over in a lot of martial arts schools. As a result it looses meaning and importance. So people think the lower stance is just a waste only meant to strengthen the legs and is not practical for an actual fight. Most martial arts competitions make it illegal to kick the knee (right fully so), and because of that most instructors don't even address kicks to the knee from a defensive perspective.

The only reason I taught it was because, of my passion for learning how to use actual martial arts techniques, and because I was always afraid that students would slip and accidentally kick someone's knee out.
Here you can see professional fighters get their leg straighten from kicks to the knee. They didn't know about the "knee bending rule" either.

Based on what you described about your incident is sounds as if the kick that hit you was to the side of your leg and you got some side way motion going on with your leg. Was the kick to the inside of your leg or the outside?

 

[JowGaWolf]

It actually felt kind of empowering to take a somewhat powerful - albeit gloved - hit to the face and still keep fighting like nothing happened.

I never like getting hit in the face even if it's soft. The reality of this for me is that if a soft hit can land on my face, then so can a hard one. Even if you get punched in the face and you feel like nothing happened, you still need to acknowledge that you screwed up and had the punch been harder, then you would have been screwed up physically.

One of the things I used to tell students is to always acknowledge a well place punch even if it doesn't do anything to you. If someone lands a well placed punch in sparring, then you should disengaged, create distance, give a quick thought of what just happened, then reengage with the desire not to make the same mistake again. I once told a student that he has to acknowledge my well placed punches because if he doesn't then I'm going to hit him harder and I'll make his body acknowledge. Once I said that, it made more sense to him just how dangerous the punch could have been.

For me I feel like I shouldn't have to knock someone out for them to understand that a punch could have been dangerous. That's something they should be able to see and acknowledge. The student should be aware of what's dangerous and what was just a crappy punch. This is an important analysis skill set for real fighting because you have to know what strikes are dangerous and which ones you can afford to be hit by.

Some people will say "fight through the punch if it doesn't hurt." For me that's crazy, because that's the same as only acknowledge something if it hurts. I was almost shot with an arrow as kid by someone who was deer hunting. The hunter didn't let the arrow go. I acknowledge what could have been had he fired the arrow. It doesn't make sense to not acknowledge the danger simply because I didn't get hurt. Getting hit with punches is like that.