Tom
I too have studied (only through camps mind you) with both GM Remy and Ernesto and I'm ranked in each one of their systems by them. In fact both GM Remy and Ernesto signed my Lakan ISA cert in 1995 (under Hock).
So the founding of the systems have been a great interest to me over the years and one that I have asked both of the brothers about.
From my discussions with them and my recollections.
1) GM Remy did develop MA and not GM Ernesto.
2) Although GM Ernesto taught MA in the PI when he took over when GM Remy was exilled.
3) GM Remy learned his art from his Grandfather, GM Remy's father did not teach him the family system. He taught GM Ernesto. I think the Grandfather taught GM Remy palis palis mainly.
4) GM Remy told me that he would travel around and find other FMA players (this is after his Balintawak training) and ask for them to "check his stick" and they would fight. From there he would defeat them and "own their techniques" and then go on his way.
I took from this conversation that GM Remy would then learn how they did their techniques and to defeat them and incorperate the essecence into his art which finally became MA.
5) GM Remy used his intellect to learn and condense his art. He told me of how he use to get beat up in the Balintawak training by some of the other players. So in order to learn how to defeat them he would take the leader (Bacon) out drinking, get him liquered up and then discuss principles behind Balintawak. Then take what information he gleaned from GM Bacon and apply them in class to learn to defeat the other players.
This is similar to the stories he told me about the "checking other instructors sticks".
6) From a conversation with Dr. Remy Jr. when I asked him about GM Remy learning other styles, he told me that Rosemary was the educated person that wrote and came up with the names for the techniques in the early books. So it wasn't that GM Remy learned different styles of play but rather the name was given to the motion of the intial entry of the technique.
So from this I take it that GM Remy might go fight someone and learn their intial entry and such (Crossada, Palis Palis, Force to Force blocking whatever) and then refine it and add it to MA (over time of course).
7) While GM Ernesto was younger than GM Remy he did learn from his father and others. He learned some different styles, (Tres Puntos and others) he devloped his own footwork (I think when in college) and he relates it to the Tiki Tiki (?) dance (some of it anyway).
8) It is reasonable to conclude that there would be cross training and sharing of knowledge between the two brothers when they were running the gym or their organization.
9) Instructors have cross trained more in the PI than here in the states in regards to GM Ernesto's and GM Remy's systems than here in the states. Master "Bambit" Dulay is on one of GM Ernesto's early tapes from the PI when he was promoting his art as Mano Mano, then later he promoted it as Kombatan. However the Kombatan players believe that MA is part of their curriculmn and that it is not a "sperate system" more like a sister system.
I believed these arts/systems were seperate but when a student of mine asked GM Ernesto recently about this he said they are the same.
10) The older students of GM Remy's have a different look about them (guys that date back to the PI), and they resemble the foot work of GM Ernesto more so than what later students of GM look like. The closer more relaxed positions that look more like Balinktawak (footwork). Look at the older books of GM Remy's and the stances are longer more classical looking, almost more karate like. However I think this has more to do with the weapons work than anything else.
FWIW
Years ago (02?) I wrote a description of Kombatan for the Escrima Digest and I asked GM Ernesto these questions and then submitted it. In that I think I listed more of the sources of GM Ernesto's training. I've never viewed it and don't know if it is still there, however if anyone is on the ED than you might check out that as well. Ray Terry I think edited it to fit into the space or to make it easier to read, but it follwoed what I worte pretty well I think.
Mark
I too have studied (only through camps mind you) with both GM Remy and Ernesto and I'm ranked in each one of their systems by them. In fact both GM Remy and Ernesto signed my Lakan ISA cert in 1995 (under Hock).
So the founding of the systems have been a great interest to me over the years and one that I have asked both of the brothers about.
From my discussions with them and my recollections.
1) GM Remy did develop MA and not GM Ernesto.
2) Although GM Ernesto taught MA in the PI when he took over when GM Remy was exilled.
3) GM Remy learned his art from his Grandfather, GM Remy's father did not teach him the family system. He taught GM Ernesto. I think the Grandfather taught GM Remy palis palis mainly.
4) GM Remy told me that he would travel around and find other FMA players (this is after his Balintawak training) and ask for them to "check his stick" and they would fight. From there he would defeat them and "own their techniques" and then go on his way.
I took from this conversation that GM Remy would then learn how they did their techniques and to defeat them and incorperate the essecence into his art which finally became MA.
5) GM Remy used his intellect to learn and condense his art. He told me of how he use to get beat up in the Balintawak training by some of the other players. So in order to learn how to defeat them he would take the leader (Bacon) out drinking, get him liquered up and then discuss principles behind Balintawak. Then take what information he gleaned from GM Bacon and apply them in class to learn to defeat the other players.
This is similar to the stories he told me about the "checking other instructors sticks".
6) From a conversation with Dr. Remy Jr. when I asked him about GM Remy learning other styles, he told me that Rosemary was the educated person that wrote and came up with the names for the techniques in the early books. So it wasn't that GM Remy learned different styles of play but rather the name was given to the motion of the intial entry of the technique.
So from this I take it that GM Remy might go fight someone and learn their intial entry and such (Crossada, Palis Palis, Force to Force blocking whatever) and then refine it and add it to MA (over time of course).
7) While GM Ernesto was younger than GM Remy he did learn from his father and others. He learned some different styles, (Tres Puntos and others) he devloped his own footwork (I think when in college) and he relates it to the Tiki Tiki (?) dance (some of it anyway).
8) It is reasonable to conclude that there would be cross training and sharing of knowledge between the two brothers when they were running the gym or their organization.
9) Instructors have cross trained more in the PI than here in the states in regards to GM Ernesto's and GM Remy's systems than here in the states. Master "Bambit" Dulay is on one of GM Ernesto's early tapes from the PI when he was promoting his art as Mano Mano, then later he promoted it as Kombatan. However the Kombatan players believe that MA is part of their curriculmn and that it is not a "sperate system" more like a sister system.
I believed these arts/systems were seperate but when a student of mine asked GM Ernesto recently about this he said they are the same.
10) The older students of GM Remy's have a different look about them (guys that date back to the PI), and they resemble the foot work of GM Ernesto more so than what later students of GM look like. The closer more relaxed positions that look more like Balinktawak (footwork). Look at the older books of GM Remy's and the stances are longer more classical looking, almost more karate like. However I think this has more to do with the weapons work than anything else.
FWIW
Years ago (02?) I wrote a description of Kombatan for the Escrima Digest and I asked GM Ernesto these questions and then submitted it. In that I think I listed more of the sources of GM Ernesto's training. I've never viewed it and don't know if it is still there, however if anyone is on the ED than you might check out that as well. Ray Terry I think edited it to fit into the space or to make it easier to read, but it follwoed what I worte pretty well I think.
Mark
Oh well maybe next time.
:asian:
