G
gic102
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hi im considering taking tai chi for the combat applications and not for the old people health benefits and was just wondering what the key differences are between yang, chen, wu etc. thx
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shaolinchi
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- #2
no offense, but that is sort of an assanine way of looking at martial arts. with the "health benefits" as you so bluntly put it for "old people" comes the combat applications. i am only 21 years old, and i study tai chi for the health benefits. maybe if you aren't looking to better yourself, you should not bother studying tai chi. the key differences i believe are just the movements in which your body does things. some focus more on breathing, while others focus less on that and more heavily on loosening up the body. which in my eyes is all the same thing, when one naturally exhales, the body immediately relaxes.
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gic102
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- #3
hmm i guess i did come on rather strongly about the "old ppl health benefits" what i meant to say was im not interested in the places where they teach SOLELY for the health benefits my apologies.
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Scout_379
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- #4
uhhh...just check out the schools and ask!
They all have a martial arts aspect and all are respected for the health benefits.
They all have a martial arts aspect and all are respected for the health benefits.
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Empty Fist
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- #5
Without getting into too much detail here, Chen is the original style which emphasizes low stances, slow and quick tempo changes, and fa jing (explosive energy). Yang was the first style derived from the Chen style and is slow, relaxed, and evenly paced . Stances are higher compared to Chen. Yang style is also the most popular style of Tai Chi Chuan. Wu style was derived from the Yang style. Stances are very high. Wu style also emphasizes that nearly 100% of one's body weight is placed on one leg in most Wu style postures. There is also the Sun style as well. Regardless of the style you decide to study, you should obtain some martial art benefit (depending on the teacher). If the teacher does not teach the martial applications of the style, then the teacher is not teaching Tai Chi Chuan and therefore wasting your time.
Here is a link to an excellent website put together by Peter Lim which provides a lot more detail on Tai Chi Chuan
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/
Here is a link to an excellent website put together by Peter Lim which provides a lot more detail on Tai Chi Chuan
http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/
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shaolinchi
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- #6
Empty Fist, good insight. Thanks for the link also! GIC, no apologies needed, I understand where you are coming from. When I first got into Tai Chi, my instructor was like come on in, its great. I was like its for old people. But its definitely not, and like i said i'm 21, and i feel great doing it
Most places that teach "Tai Chi" are heath oriented only places. Ones that teach the combat aspect are usually called "Tai Chi Chuan". Though this is not neccessarily always true, just a rule of thumb.
The largest Tai Chi school, Taoist Tai Chi Society based out of Canada, promotes heath aspects only, they will never do martial aspects (Only mentioned because they most likely have a school somewhere in your area)
A school that teaches competitive push hands probably will be good for you (Except for the one above which teaches a "modified" push hands that is not really combat oriented) That is probably going to be the most obvious first difference between the two types of schools.
Unfourtantly it will take a bit of time to get good enough to really tell if your instructor is qualified enough or not. I'm on my 3rd one, and I always thought my previous one was good, but each time after switching I saw that they were not.
The largest Tai Chi school, Taoist Tai Chi Society based out of Canada, promotes heath aspects only, they will never do martial aspects (Only mentioned because they most likely have a school somewhere in your area)
A school that teaches competitive push hands probably will be good for you (Except for the one above which teaches a "modified" push hands that is not really combat oriented) That is probably going to be the most obvious first difference between the two types of schools.
Unfourtantly it will take a bit of time to get good enough to really tell if your instructor is qualified enough or not. I'm on my 3rd one, and I always thought my previous one was good, but each time after switching I saw that they were not.
From what I remember reading, Empty Fist is essentially correct. Chen style is the earliest development and bears some resemblance to hard, external arts because it uses more fast, explosive movements. Yang style was next, coming out of Chen, and it puts more ephasis on softness and being relaxed; it's done at a slow, steady pace and doesn't have the explosive movements of Chen style. As for others, I think they're developments out of one or both of these. Wu can be one of two styles though -- there's a Wu that's also called Hao and one that's just called Wu. One book I have indicates that the Wu (W'u) or Hao style came from a combination of Chen and Yang and the Sun style developed out of this. The other Wu style derived just from Yang and the same book calls it Small Frame Yang Style. I'm not well versed in the differences, but I have enough books that if I felt like doing it, I could probaby go through them and come up with something better than this. But I need to go to bed soon.
I think dmax999 is right about the "tai chi" or "tai chi chuan" difference in naming. But like Scout_379 said, visit schools and talk to people there. They should be happy to answer your questions. If you want a school that will teach the martial aspects of the art, make sure you ask about that and choose a school that will cover it. Good luck with the search, hopefully what we've said here is of some use to you.
I think dmax999 is right about the "tai chi" or "tai chi chuan" difference in naming. But like Scout_379 said, visit schools and talk to people there. They should be happy to answer your questions. If you want a school that will teach the martial aspects of the art, make sure you ask about that and choose a school that will cover it. Good luck with the search, hopefully what we've said here is of some use to you.
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Good posts and good advice. However I need to take issue with a couple of points. There seems to be a general feeling that Yang Family Taijiquan does not have fa jing. Nothing could be further from the truth. True, it does not manifest itself as obviously as in Chen, but believe me it is there. If it isn't, then you are not doing Taijiquan. Each posture must end with the issue of fa jing otherwise the posture is empty.
The Taoist Tai Chi Society actively prohibit the practise or even discussion of the martial aspects of the art, and are not therefore teaching Taijiquan per se. (Its all Yin). They will also tell you that the form they practise was invented by their (late) leader Moy Lin Shin. In fact Moy took the Traditional Yang Long form and changed some of the body allignments and called it Taoist Tai Chi!
The real health benefits of taijiquan come from correct body posture and allignment. Correct body mechanics = correct martial application = energy gates opened = energy channels alligned = good health. Anyone who tells you that you can do Taijiquan without the martial aspect is telling you porkies and therefore give them a wide berth.
Keep up the good advice guys
Regards
East Winds
The Taoist Tai Chi Society actively prohibit the practise or even discussion of the martial aspects of the art, and are not therefore teaching Taijiquan per se. (Its all Yin). They will also tell you that the form they practise was invented by their (late) leader Moy Lin Shin. In fact Moy took the Traditional Yang Long form and changed some of the body allignments and called it Taoist Tai Chi!
The real health benefits of taijiquan come from correct body posture and allignment. Correct body mechanics = correct martial application = energy gates opened = energy channels alligned = good health. Anyone who tells you that you can do Taijiquan without the martial aspect is telling you porkies and therefore give them a wide berth.
Keep up the good advice guys
Regards
East Winds
You mentioned the fa jing thing in the Chen Tai Chi thread, too, and if I understand things correctly, I suspect that you're trying to point out that you don't *need* hard, fast, explosive movements to have fa jing. Fa jing is basically something like a release/transmission of energy/power, right? While that may be easier to do or make clear with a hard, fast movement, making it more obvious in Chen style, I don't think you *have* to do such a movement in order to transmit your energy, meaning it's there in Yang style, just not as obvious. That's the idea, right?
pete
Master Black Belt
i practice neither yang nor chen (well, actually a descendant of chen), and one of our guiding principles is that which is obvious in form will be obvious in combat, and that which is concealed in practice will remain hidden from your opponent... "fa jing", it necessary in any and all tai chi, tai chi chuan, taiji, etc and so on and so forth... what is important is not how we anglicize its spelling, but how we practice according to the principles of your chosen style.
pete
pete
East Winds
2nd Black Belt
Dronak,
Yes, absolutely right on the money!!!!! Empty postures equate to double weighted hands and as you know fa-jing is issued with the yang hand but powered by the yin hand driven from the waist. Double weighted hands = no fa-jing. I suspect that many Yang instructors do not understand the fa-jing content in their form and therefore do not teach it. Having said that of course, there are many who do!!!
Very best wishes
East Winds
Yes, absolutely right on the money!!!!! Empty postures equate to double weighted hands and as you know fa-jing is issued with the yang hand but powered by the yin hand driven from the waist. Double weighted hands = no fa-jing. I suspect that many Yang instructors do not understand the fa-jing content in their form and therefore do not teach it. Having said that of course, there are many who do!!!
Very best wishes
East Winds
OP
Hammer Head
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #13
gic102:
You are very fortunate to have one of the best Chen Style Taijiquan Masters in the Western Hemisphere right in your own town!
Chen Zhonghua (a.k.a. Joseph Chen)
Hunyuantaiji Academy
5221-87 Street, Edmonton
Alberta, Canada
www.chenzhonghua.com
[email protected]
780-413-0454
You are very fortunate to have one of the best Chen Style Taijiquan Masters in the Western Hemisphere right in your own town!
Chen Zhonghua (a.k.a. Joseph Chen)
Hunyuantaiji Academy
5221-87 Street, Edmonton
Alberta, Canada
www.chenzhonghua.com
[email protected]
780-413-0454
OP
Skankatron Ltd
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- Thread Starter
- #14
Another thing i'd like to point out, someone mentioned that chen style fa jing resembles external martial arts, and that yang style is slow and lacks fa jing.
Ok, where to begin? Fa jing can be slow or fast, doesn't matter AT all. The very essence of fa jing is internal martial arts. Fa jing is not possible without the chi that drives it. Now, as I see it, doing the moves slowly will not only increase your chi, but develop your energy connections so that fa jing is made possible. Fa Jing is something learned (unless you are PARTICULARLY skillful). Slow, fast, they're still both relaxed. It may seem contradictory to have an explosive fa jing energy loaded fist be completely relaxed, but it's part of the yin/yang concept. In FACT: if you even TRY to tense it or add extra umph to it, you are likely to get much worse results. This is why some people who study internal techniques such as iron palm can slap piles of bricks (without spacers) in two. The energy goes through the palm, and into the bricks. Try slapping a brick with all your might and see where that get's you. A key element to iron palm is relaxation. Hope all this helps.
Ok, where to begin? Fa jing can be slow or fast, doesn't matter AT all. The very essence of fa jing is internal martial arts. Fa jing is not possible without the chi that drives it. Now, as I see it, doing the moves slowly will not only increase your chi, but develop your energy connections so that fa jing is made possible. Fa Jing is something learned (unless you are PARTICULARLY skillful). Slow, fast, they're still both relaxed. It may seem contradictory to have an explosive fa jing energy loaded fist be completely relaxed, but it's part of the yin/yang concept. In FACT: if you even TRY to tense it or add extra umph to it, you are likely to get much worse results. This is why some people who study internal techniques such as iron palm can slap piles of bricks (without spacers) in two. The energy goes through the palm, and into the bricks. Try slapping a brick with all your might and see where that get's you. A key element to iron palm is relaxation. Hope all this helps.
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