Did Japan have Kiai Jutsu before 20th century? What happened to it today?

[Steve]

Whatever China tells themselves, I'm just going to keep saying that Korea has had wrestling (& its hurrying sport, Subak/Shoubo) before China even started. Scandinavia & Mesopotamia had the same wrestling as Korea, but Korea didn't come from them for the last 5000 years. The migration was before that. Because the migration was before China even started, Altaic people had wrestling (& Subak/Shoubo, which was the hurrying of wrestling with strikes) before China.

well I'm going to keep saying that it was from Norway. Of course it would be ridiculous to say Iceland because that was uninhabited until 700 AD or so.

Main point, vikings invented wrestling. And kung fu.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This just came to me...your Korean, and you talk about your country..... are you in Korea? If so do you know what time it is there right now....5:12am..... Friday.....and you've been posting for hours......just saying

 

[Steve]

Whatever China says!? it is documented historical fact stated by historians.... historians you seem to want to contact to prove whatever it is your trying to prove. So no matter what the historical facts are you are going to deny them to keep pushing your ridiculous supposition.

And now are you claiming that the Korean people are descendants of Scandinavians and Mesopotamians?... if so, do you know how incredibly ridiculous that claim is.

Korea did not exist before China and Korea did not exist before Chinese wrestling. Your claims are absolutely unfounded and a completely ridiculous supposition at best.....

To be fair, this is very consistent with traditional martial art history. Martial art x was founded in 1950 but was from martial art Y which was in turn a derivative of Z so therefore it has a long, and glorious history going back thousands of years.

 

[Xue Sheng]

well I'm going to keep saying that it was from Norway. Of course it would be ridiculous to say Iceland because that was uninhabited until 700 AD or so.

Main point, vikings invented wrestling. And kung fu.

Pirate Ninja Vikings to be exact

 

[Steve]

Pirate Ninja Vikings to be exact

Pirate and viking is redundant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

well I'm going to keep saying that it was from Norway. Of course it would be ridiculous to say Iceland because that was uninhabited until 700 AD or so.

Main point, vikings invented wrestling. And kung fu.

And atomic power. Because there's no record of them inventing it, we can't prove they didn't!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Pirate and viking is redundant.

No its not...its a Viking with an eye patch and a parrot in his shoulder...in a long ship...speaking some Scandinavian language and saying "ARRRR" a lot

 

[Gerry Seymour]

China credited wrestling to horned helmet people which included Korean. Also, Korean wrestling is identical to Scandinavian wrestling, which suggests that it was before the time of China.

Breaking clay tiles were done in Okinawa when? Is there proof on it? Also, I thought we were going with either "Japan also had Kiaijutsu Breaking" or "Karate's Breaking started from Iron Palm's Breaking". Also, we are now focusing on the hand strike Mas Oyama taught Karate. Its origin is Korean because Korean historically recorded that hand strike, that's what I'm saying. Shoulder rotation for hand strike & stacking speed & power unlike Karate's explosion & implosion. 1933's Karate Breaking had square stationary shoulder without rotating shoulder for hand strike. Mas Oyama taught that shoulder has to rotate for hand strike in Breaking/Tameshiwari. I'm saying that technique & knowhow is from Korean origin cause Korean was historically recorded to possess that trait. (& because Mas Oyama was a Korean, he saw Korean techniques done.)

I welcome counter-evidences & counter-logic. My contents evolve with more inputs. I'm ok with that.

You seem to be equating an historical record as some sort of patent. It's not. You're working very hard to prove something that might not ever be provable in any direction, and trying to do so with a scant few sources - all of which are aimed at one direction of the question. You've apparently done nothing to attempt to validate your own conclusion by examining contrary evidence and ideas. The latter is almost certainly due to your personal bias on the topic.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Pirate and viking is redundant.

All Vikings may have been pirates, but not all pirates were Vikings.

 

[Steven Lee]

So, tell me what other conclusions are possible from the historical records I showed? Be specific what other conclusions are possible without contradicting my references & sources. Oyama taught a Korean hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before, Karate had it after, Korean had it before. Breaking/Tameshiawri was well known by Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul; Japan became aware of this; Korean always has had Breaking. What other conclusions are possible in this situation?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Pirate Ninja Vikings to be exact

That sounds like a bad knock-off toy brand.

 

[Steven Lee]

As usual, you don't have any other possible conclusions not contradicting my referenced facts.

Oyama taught a Korean hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before, Karate had it after, Korean had it before. Breaking/Tameshiawri was well known by Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul; Japan became aware of this; Korean always has had Breaking. What other conclusions are possible in this situation?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Apparently it all came from Scandinavia and Mesopotamia......and managed to circumvent China, likely coming though Russia and it all secretly existed thousands of years ago and I would not be surprised if there was a Systema connection as well...would explain why Scandinavian languages are so vastly different from Korean with no similarities in language or culture

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So, tell me what other conclusions are possible from the historical records I showed? Be specific what other conclusions are possible without contradicting my references & sources. Oyama taught a Korean hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before, Karate had it after, Korean had it before. Breaking/Tameshiawri was well known by Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul; Japan became aware of this; Korean always has had Breaking. What other conclusions are possible in this situation?

Let me fix some of that for you:

"Oyama taught a Korean[-looking] hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before [so far as my rather brief research suggests, and I see no reason to research more deeply], Karate had it after, Korean had it before. Breaking/Tameshiawri was well known by Korean Kiaijutsu/Kihapsul; Japan became aware of this [though they probably also had some breaking, either locally developed or inherited from China as Chinese arts came over]; Korean always has had Breaking[, at least for the period I can reasonably put records to - I'm making an assumption of everything before that]."

 

[Steve]

Apparently it all came from Scandinavia and Mesopotamia......and managed to circumvent China, likely coming though Russia and it all secretly existed thousands of years ago and I would not be surprised if there was a Systema connection as well

Actually south and then east through India and se Asia. Maybe.

 

[punisher73]

Just to point out if you are looking at "Kiai-Jutsu" from Japanese sources, you are going to get very different results if you are looking at breaking objects, which in Japanese is "Tameshiwari". "Kiai-Jutsu" would roughly be translated as "spirit harmony technique".

Ki=Spirit/Energy
Ai=Harmony
Jutsu=Technique

In the Japanese language and martial concepts, "kiai" and "aiki" are opposite sides of the same coin. A "Ki-ai" therefore in Japanese arts can also be silent and not a shout or yell as most people associate with it.

But, the actual study of "kiai-jutsu" would literally be a study of how shouts and yells affect the spirit of the attacker. It stems from the use of words, sounds and tones to elicit responses in the body. Applied, the theory was that you could influence your attacker by shouting certain sounds as well. Same as the modern military application of using sounds as a weapon.

I keep resisting the urge to talk about "Sinanju" the sun source of all martial arts and I'm surprised we haven't gone there yet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually south and then east through India and se Asia. Maybe.

Yeeah but then the Scandinavians would have had one heck of a walk to the south into India then possibly into Tibet.. and then go around China to get to Korea....sounds plausible

 

[Steven Lee]

No, the Kiaijutsu I was looking for was feats of strength like Tameshiwari/Breaking, pulling a heavy bus with barehands, etc.

 

[Steven Lee]

"Oyama taught a Korean[-looking] hand strike to Karate cause Karate didn't have it before [so far as my rather brief research suggests, and I see no reason to research more deeply],
Kamesuke Higashioona 1933 Hand Breaking without shoulder-rotation. Breaking (martial arts) - Wikipedia

Korean always has had Breaking[, at least for the period I can reasonably put records to - I'm making an assumption of everything before that].

There's no assumption. I referenced many Korean Breaking events from history in any era. (400 years ago, 100 years ago.)

 

[BrendanF]

No, the Kiaijutsu I was looking for was feats of strength like Tameshiwari/Breaking, pulling a heavy bus with barehands, etc.

You are forgetting the famous centuries old account of Benkei pulling a heavy bus across Gojo bridge.