Desperate city

[Tgace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Orleans,_Louisiana

Much of the city is located below sea level between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain, so the city is surrounded by levees. Until the early 20th century, construction was largely limited to the slightly higher ground along old natural river levees and bayous, since much of the rest of the land was swampy and subject to frequent flooding. This gave the 19th century city the shape of a crescent along a bend of the Mississippi, the origin of the nickname The Crescent City. In the 1910s engineer and inventor A. Baldwin Wood enacted his ambitious plan to drain the city, including large pumps of his own design which are still used. All rain water must be pumped up to the canals which drain into Lake Pontchartrain. Wood's pumps and drainage allowed the city to expand greatly in area. However, pumping of groundwater from underneath the city has resulted in subsidence. The subsidence greatly increased the flood risk,

So. If you were a city planner, what would you do? Do we rebuild as before but with better levee systems? Or do we go back to the old "Crescent City" and say **** living below sea level?

 

[michaeledward]

Absolutely... Im saying someone dropped the ball here. However, how long has this been a possibility? How long has New Orleans been in the crosshairs of something like this? Do the people at the helm when the inevitable happens bear the bulk of the responsibility? How far back can we go when we say "you guys should have thought of this?"

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=100857

Please tell me this isn't true ....

The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.
And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.
The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.
The agency, run by Brown since 2003, is now at the center of a growing fury over the handling of the New Orleans disaster.
. . . .
Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association, a breeders' and horse-show organization based in Colorado.
``We do disciplinary actions, certification of (show trial) judges. We hold classes to train people to become judges and stewards. And we keep records,'' explained a spokeswoman for the IAHA commissioner's office. ``This was his full-time job . . . for 11 years,'' she added.
Brown was forced out of the position after a spate of lawsuits over alleged supervision failures.
``He was asked to resign,'' Bill Pennington, president of the IAHA at the time, confirmed last night.

 

[michaeledward]

This from the Louisiana National Guard Joint Task Force, Brigadier General Gary Jones;

"“This place is going to look like Little Somalia. “We’re going to go out and take this city back. This will be a combat operation to get this city under control.”

 

[KenpoEMT]

The federal official in charge of the bungled New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.

And before joining the Federal Emergency Management Agency as a deputy director in 2001, GOP activist Mike Brown had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position.

The Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.

That is surreal...

This will be a combat operation to get this city under control

Ah, the final result of getting your slacker college friend a job he isn't qualified to do. I hope someone goes to prison over this.

 

[KenpoEMT]

I seem to recall that it is, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL to use the military in comabt operations against American civilians. This is supposed to be a rescue operation and not an operation with ROEs of 'terminate with extreme prejudice' . Somebody needs to suggest to Rambo that he needs to retire.

Jeez, I know that I've been harping for a greater level of assitance from the military, but full fledged combat operations are a bit extreme. Where are the units designated as "peace keepers?" Oh yeah, that would be ALL of our infantry when needed. We send our military all over the world, and we handi-cap their efforts by creating restrictive Rules of Engagement. Now, on American soil in New Orleans, the first impulse of the commanders is to go right into combat mode?! Does that sound a little off to anyone else, or is it just me?

Things are very bad in The City right now, but it is nothing that a lot of hot food, clean water, health care, and effective law enforcement can't cure. Granted, the effective law enforcement part is the most difficult to accomplish. So reassign a few companies of MPs (wow, I guess that there is a positive use for MPs :lol: ).

[randomjab=politicians]

These politicians appear to be too afraid of the public that elected them to effectively perform the duties of their respective offices. Perhaps they honestly don't know what to do. Gunshy? Afraid of the polls? The incompetence is already evident...Ahhhhh, our elected Kings and Queens are clearly basking in their relative safety. No matter, we shall verbally roast them regardless of what they fail to do.

[/randomjab]

 

[Tgace]

I seem to recall that it is, oh I don't know, ILLEGAL to use the military in comabt operations against American civilians.

The national guard can be used in instances of civil disorder. They are State entities not federal until "federalized" for active duty.

 

[Makalakumu]

There is a book that was published a ways back called, "The Control of Nature" by John McPhee. This situation was described intimately in that book, with interviews of top officials who said it was inadequate, it was always inadequate, and because of the attitude of our federal government, it will continue to be inadequate. This btw, it one of my favorite books. I use it in my classroom all of the time. I would recommend that anyone grab a copy and read it.

 

[KenpoEMT]

The national guard can be used in instances of civil disorder. They are State entities not federal until "federalized" for active duty.

Well, there is that.

Aren't they required to be federalized in order to operate beyond their respective states borders? The LA Nat Guard can operate freely within LA, but in order for the TX Nat Guard to assist must they not come under federal control? I am not sure. I wasn't involved in any of the week-end warrior stuff.

 

[michaeledward]

There is an terribly sad article in National Geographic from October of last year. 10 months ago.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0410/feature5/index.html

 

[hardheadjarhead]

So, you think Halliburton will be put in charge of reconstructing New Orleans? If so they won't have power for at least three years.

I should say reconstruction of the central south coastal states. Mississippi was slammed too. Biloxi, where I used to live, was put under a 25 foot tidal surge. I guess another storm is on the way.


10,000 feared dead:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/katrina/story/0,16441,1562005,00.html?gusrc=rss

People dying of thirst:

http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2731/dying-thirst-new-orleans

Two dead babies were found with other bodies in the Convention Center. The stench, apparently, is overwhelming given all the piled up garbage and the corpses. One teenager was found raped and her throat slashed...stuffed in a refrigerator.

The reporters for Fox News who are witnessing all this are firing off at Sean Hannity, who is trying to minimize the damage down there.

Homeland Security can't allow the Red Cross to deliver food because of damage:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05246/565143.stm


There are elderly and children down there who are lacking medications and medical attention. The water is foul, having been tainted with fuel, chemicals, rotting flesh, and feces. People haven't a clue as to how to survive because they never thought they'd face this.





Regards,


Steve

 

[Sapper6]

Well, there is that.

Aren't they required to be federalized in order to operate beyond their respective states borders? The LA Nat Guard can operate freely within LA, but in order for the TX Nat Guard to assist must they not come under federal control? I am not sure. I wasn't involved in any of the week-end warrior stuff.

no, federalization is not required. when the national guard is called up for disaster relief and security, they are put on SED (State Emergency Duty) orders. these soldiers are paid by their respective states, not the federal gov't. case in point, missouri deployed 1000 MP's to the region. these soldiers were notifed wednesday afternoon of the SED mobilizations, reported to their alert stations thursday afternoon, and convoys departed friday morning. these soldiers will be paid by the state of missouri for the entire time they are there.

and i would hardly refer to them as weekend warriors. the national guard and army reserve make up half of all the troops in iraq and afghanistan. the MPs missouri sent, 1138th MP, 1139th MP, 175th MP, and 179th MP PROV BDE, all just returned from an 18 month mobilization to iraq, afghanistan, cuba, and noble eagle missions in April.

 

[KenpoEMT]

Hey, thanks for the info.

The week-end warrior comment was not meant to be a negative crack. That's just how they were referred to. They train one week-end per month/two weeks per year until called up.

Many, many week-end warriors served valiantly in Vietnam as well. I didn't know anything about that until one of my friends pointed it out.

Businessman by day, warrior by week-end; standing ready to serve when our nation calls. Trust me, I don't have anything negative to say about those guys/gals.

 

[Sapper6]

Hey, thanks for the info.

The week-end warrior comment was not meant to be a negative crack. That's just how they were referred to. They train one week-end per month/two weeks per year until called up.

Many, many week-end warriors served valiantly in Vietnam as well. I didn't know anything about that until one of my friends pointed it out.

Businessman by day, warrior by week-end; standing ready to serve when our nation calls. Trust me, I don't have anything negative to say about those guys/gals.

hey, no problem man

:asian:

 

[hardheadjarhead]

"...The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us… "

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/




Regards,


Steve

 

[KenpoEMT]

"...The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us… "

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/

Ugh...that's awful.

 

[shesulsa]

"...The guy who runs this building I’m in, Emergency Management, he’s responsible for everything. His mother was trapped in St. Bernard nursing home and every day she called him and said, “Are you coming, son? Is somebody coming?” and he said, “Yeah, Mama, somebody’s coming to get you.” Somebody’s coming to get you on Tuesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Wednesday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Thursday. Somebody’s coming to get you on Friday… and she drowned Friday night. She drowned Friday night! [Sobbing] Nobody’s coming to get us. Nobody’s coming to get us… "

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/04/worst-abandonments/

I saw that footage last night and today - I am just speechless.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/02/national/nationalspecial/02response.html

"We knew if it was going to be a Category 5, some levees and some flood walls would be overtopped," he said. "We never did think they would actually be breached." The uncertainty of the storm's course affected Pentagon planning.

"We did not have precision on where it would make landfall," said Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, the head of the National Guard Bureau. "It could have been anywhere from Texas all the way over to Florida."

Some 10,000 National Guard troops were mobilized, 7,000 of them in Louisiana and Mississippi. But the Defense Department could not put soldiers and equipment directly in the possible path of the storm, General Blum said.

The National Guard was having similar troubles. While troops were stationed in the region, they could not move quickly into the New Orleans area. And in Mississippi, the zone of destruction was so widespread, it was difficult to cover it all quickly, officials said.

"It is not a function of more people, but how many people can you move on the road system that exists now in Louisiana and in Mississippi," said General Blum of the National Guard. "How many people can you put through that funnel that a storm has taken four lane highways and turned them into goat trails?"

People have no clue what a military mobilization entails.....

 

[Makalakumu]

When it comes to rescuing somebody, there is a 72 hour window where people can survive. If the military cannot do it in 72 hours, then perhaps we need to find another way...

Five days is too long.

 

[Tgace]

The only way to "save a city" is evacuation. With that many people to deal with...Moving thousands of people and housing and clothing them in 72 hours is a herculean task.

 

[Shorin Ryuu]

I would appreciate if people didn't downgrade me as far as reputation regarding posts on a political nature.

Obviously everyone is free to do what they will, but it is making me look like some sort of a delinquent poster when the cause is disagreement over politics.