Defensive Tactics...

[Drac]

You have to charge something for your training.....if you do it 'free' the thought process is that it's not good training....wrong headed, I know, but most folks equate 'free' with of no value.....but if you charge them something, oddly they start thinking it's worth something. Weird, I know, but start charging.

I know full well the law of what free means and normally I do charge..This was a sampler to test the waters so to speak as Father Greek and I are ready to expand our training...Got a lot of interest from the email and post cards send out...

 

[sgtmac_46]

I know full well the law of what free means and normally I do charge..This was a sampler to test the waters so to speak as Father Greek and I are ready to expand our training...Got a lot of interest from the email and post cards send out...

Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.

 

[Drac]

Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.

Well said and so true...

 

[theletch1]

Yeah, cops are always interested......right up until the week before, and they decide they can't squeeze it in.

Heh, it ain't just cops.:wink2: My dojo offers a discount on tuition to LEOs and we've had many come in and stay for 2,3,6 months. Eventually they mostly just show up less and less seldom. Any suggestions for keeping them active? I've had several tell me that techniques they've learned in the dojo have come in handy on the street (doubt the supervisor knows about it) so I don't think it's the curriculum.

 

[kailat]

I can relate to everyones post on here, as i've either experienced it in one form or another.

Having been a DT's instructor, and teaching multiple services of LEO, and Correctional Officers, Hospital Personell (phsych ward), and those that work with mentally handicap. The PPCT course was firstly developed as a quick and effective course to be taught to individuals dealing in environments where high probability of injury or risk of injury to staff and visitors while dealing w/ dangerous or potentially dangerous students, inmates, prisoners, mental patients are kept.

Take for instance a medical personel who discards meds to a mentally ill patient and the patient quickly becomes beligerent or violent and the person prescribing meds becomes irrate how is he to react? PUNCH the offender or patient square in the nose? Causing more pain or injury? Most likely the patient being mentally ill may not ever realize he / she is violent threat. But the staff must learn to deal with these situations in a manner that quickly protects himself and the others around him as well as being able to quickly restrain the patient without the possibility of seriously harming them.

To be written in a report that "the above offender began to be come aggressive in nature as I was walking into his/her cell to deliver the proper medically prescribed meds. the patient quickly became beligernt and began flailing his / her arms and coming close to striking me out of uncontrollalbe urges to do harm I quickly placed the patient in a wrist lock using minimal force and soft empty hand control trying to quickly retain sensible reaction from the premedicated patient. Upon placing soft empty hand control on said patient he / she quickly became compliant, no further action or force was necessary!" Or should I say " I just punched the violent offender / patient causing visible injury and harm beaking the patients nose and possible knocking out of teeth, and harming myself by injury to my hand from hard contact to the patients mandible area."

So by using the proper guidelines of the PPCT training it is a ligitimate in court documentary piece of evidence that the officer, or staff was properly trained in a FORM of defensive tactical guidelines as set forth by the courts as to keep your *** out of jail yourself.

So by an officer rights he / she takes on the time to say hmmm, I can train in a system that is violent and when I start becoming violent when dealing w/ subjects that I can defend myself in a milder manner then w/0 instinct cutting someones face apart because thats just how i train.. Alot of officers see that type of training as redundant and over kill for their job. Htey feel they can just rely on weapons and other forms of force when needed. In many cases and instances its true... but I being an officer, and a martial artist. I think by trainng your gross motor skills you can validate that very moment. But to each his own. If your venturing or thinking of venturing into the realm of teaching police officers. ALl i can say is be prepared to be let down and upset by the lack of serious participation. Its said 1 in 2,500 or so martial artist make it to Black Belt.. Well I believe the odds of police officers training beyong their recommended hours outside of the Academy and training regimine is even broader. Like 1 in every 25 or so LEO will train outside their work and its mostly going to be i things like MMA or cage style fighting. It may be even higher than that.

Good luck

 

[sgtmac_46]

Heh, it ain't just cops.:wink2: My dojo offers a discount on tuition to LEOs and we've had many come in and stay for 2,3,6 months. Eventually they mostly just show up less and less seldom. Any suggestions for keeping them active? I've had several tell me that techniques they've learned in the dojo have come in handy on the street (doubt the supervisor knows about it) so I don't think it's the curriculum.

Here's the problem with police work.....shifts change, assignments change and case loads are constantly changing. They show up for 2, 3, 6 months......then court days start bunching together, their shift changes, they get a promotion or an assignment change, and it becomes very difficult for them to keep up with.....add to that changes in family environment.

The short answer is....I don't have a short answer. If firemen needed martial arts skills, you'd have plenty of them showing up, because the nature of firefighting and firefighters is that they can pretty much train all the time.....cops have far more demands on their time.

 

[sgtmac_46]

ALl i can say is be prepared to be let down and upset by the lack of serious participation. Its said 1 in 2,500 or so martial artist make it to Black Belt.. Well I believe the odds of police officers training beyong their recommended hours outside of the Academy and training regimine is even broader. Like 1 in every 25 or so LEO will train outside their work and its mostly going to be i things like MMA or cage style fighting. It may be even higher than that.

Good luck

I'd say that's pretty accurate.....the same actually applies with firearms training as well....most cops dust their sidearm off to qualify and leave it in their holster for the next 3 to 6 months until next qualification time.....and then they barely squeak by.

Society believes a myth that every cop is combination martial arts master/firearms expert.....and throw in CSI expert, detective, attorney, social worker, psychologist, etc, etc, etc.....and it's simply not true. Cops specialize, and most cops view DT and Firearms training as at BEST a necessary pain and at worst a waste of their time.

 

[kailat]

Sgtmac,

I agree PPCT is not a great source or viable source of self defense for an all out brawl, and it's not meant to be!!

What people are failing to see in the larger picture, mainly the blinders of it not complete, when in reality PPCT and DT's for the most part is just as complete as any instructor makes it.

See PPCT is a guideline, a course program that as an LEO or DT's instructor one must follow for procedures of properly handeling a situation to make it sound better on documentation. Does this mean the PPCT or DT's as taught to be followed to the "T"? Not necessarily. If an LEO or CO, or whomever is needed to be trained in DT's has to defend themselves be it non-lethal force, to lethal force the force continum comes to play.

If im tackled do I start blasting the common peroneal nerve knowing it may or may not work? Or do I post guard or gain mount etc.. and choke the man out at all cost of saving my life? Does the situation require you to choke the assailant into complete unconciousness? Can you roll over your opponent and gain an straight arm bar, w/ a wrist type lock and control the suspect to calm him into submission? what about the use of pressure points to control and seize your opponent!! is it 100% effective? NO!! Nothing is...But an officer trained in PPCT or DT's that has 0(zero) training ever, has a much better fighting chance than that guy who has nothing not even PPCT DT's training.. A seasoned or skilled MA that has DT/PPCT training also well yes his / her chance of survival is greater!! But nonetheless the report has to read the same as an officer w/ less experience and thats what PPCT was devised for. When a judge reads over the report and the proper terminology is from the PPCT infrastructure is written, vs. that of an experienced MA and your using terms like Jump Spinning hook kick, and Spinning Backfist, or " I applied a guninting strike to the inside of the forearm followed up by a series of jik chung choy (chain punches) to the face of the guy" I mean does this make sense? Does this mean these cannot be used? NOT AT ALL, just don't report it if you did happend to use thes techiques. LOL just use the PPCT terms and you'll fair much better when the judge and the DA are reading over your report if Empty hand control had to be used!!! If you have to use an intermediate weapon the same applies as well...

Hope this helps those w/ o DT's training and are looking to teach LEO's Defensive Tactics. You must adhere to standard operating procedures.. YOu can't just go teach an officer to break ankles and knees if and when an altercation arises. You can and are and will be just in as much hot water as the teacher as the officer who uses it!!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Sgtmac,

I agree PPCT is not a great source or viable source of self defense for an all out brawl, and it's not meant to be!!

What people are failing to see in the larger picture, mainly the blinders of it not complete, when in reality PPCT and DT's for the most part is just as complete as any instructor makes it.

See PPCT is a guideline, a course program that as an LEO or DT's instructor one must follow for procedures of properly handeling a situation to make it sound better on documentation. Does this mean the PPCT or DT's as taught to be followed to the "T"? Not necessarily. If an LEO or CO, or whomever is needed to be trained in DT's has to defend themselves be it non-lethal force, to lethal force the force continum comes to play.

If im tackled do I start blasting the common peroneal nerve knowing it may or may not work? Or do I post guard or gain mount etc.. and choke the man out at all cost of saving my life? Does the situation require you to choke the assailant into complete unconciousness? Can you roll over your opponent and gain an straight arm bar, w/ a wrist type lock and control the suspect to calm him into submission? what about the use of pressure points to control and seize your opponent!! is it 100% effective? NO!! Nothing is...But an officer trained in PPCT or DT's that has 0(zero) training ever, has a much better fighting chance than that guy who has nothing not even PPCT DT's training.. A seasoned or skilled MA that has DT/PPCT training also well yes his / her chance of survival is greater!! But nonetheless the report has to read the same as an officer w/ less experience and thats what PPCT was devised for. When a judge reads over the report and the proper terminology is from the PPCT infrastructure is written, vs. that of an experienced MA and your using terms like Jump Spinning hook kick, and Spinning Backfist, or " I applied a guninting strike to the inside of the forearm followed up by a series of jik chung choy (chain punches) to the face of the guy" I mean does this make sense? Does this mean these cannot be used? NOT AT ALL, just don't report it if you did happend to use thes techiques. LOL just use the PPCT terms and you'll fair much better when the judge and the DA are reading over your report if Empty hand control had to be used!!! If you have to use an intermediate weapon the same applies as well...

Hope this helps those w/ o DT's training and are looking to teach LEO's Defensive Tactics. You must adhere to standard operating procedures.. YOu can't just go teach an officer to break ankles and knees if and when an altercation arises. You can and are and will be just in as much hot water as the teacher as the officer who uses it!!

I really don't want to get in a peeing contest over PPCT....and will say only this.....it's not a bad system, but it's marketing is a whole lot better. I mostly dislike the 'It wasn't invented here' mentality where PPCT pushes the idea to administrators that if it's not PPCT.....it's a lawsuit waiting to happen. That's all i'm saying on the subject.

There are good techniques and principles taught in PPCT......but the propriety 'It must be PPCT and ONLY PPCT' marketing BS annoys me to no end. There are a lot of good systems out there....PPCT is one of them......but PPCT is not by far the BEST.....simply the most used.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Speaking of strangles.....the last guy I was forced to use the LVNR on after fighting with him in a ditch later on in court had his attorney question me about the incident......apparently he lost conciousness so fast he thought I must have hit him in the head with my flashlight. The guys moronic attorney ask me several times if I hit his client in the head with a flashlight, and couldn't believe I calmly replied if I did not. Apparently he didn't read the report very well because I clearly stated that I applied an LVNR rearnaked choke rendering his client unconcious! It's double humorous in that the suspect was transported to the hospital for treatment of WRIST injuries he incurred when he fell in to a concrete culvert while fleeing from me....and no where in his complaints to the ambulance personnell or the ER staff did he mention any other injuries or complaints except his WRISTS!

If I do something on the street, I include it in the report.....if I choked the guy, i'm NOT claiming 'I was applying my PPCT taught mandibular angle and the subject lost conciousness'.....that's all well and good until VIDEO surfaces of you CHOKING the guy.....

 

[tellner]

If the lawyer can't even be trusted to read the report his client should look for different representation

 

[sgtmac_46]

If the lawyer can't even be trusted to read the report his client should look for different representation

I know his lawyer.....he's known as the guy who charges the least in the phone book.....and when i saw that this guy was his attorney as I was approaching the witness stand I chuckled inside!

 

[Drac]

I know his lawyer.....he's known as the guy who charges the least in the phone book.....and when i saw that this guy was his attorney as I was approaching the witness stand I chuckled inside!

Been there...Its a good feeling....

 

[tellner]

I like it to. It's so much easier to railroad someone if you know he doesn't have a competent lawyer. Those pesky facts and the inconvenient trifle of the law can be dispensed with so we can get on with good Old Fashioned policing.

:barf:

 

[sgtmac_46]

I like it to. It's so much easier to railroad someone if you know he doesn't have a competent lawyer. Those pesky facts and the inconvenient trifle of the law can be dispensed with so we can get on with good Old Fashioned policing.

:barf:

Railroad? The FACTS were that this jackass had robbed an old LADIES HOUSE! What, you feel sorry for him because he picked his OWN ATTORNEY and picked the WRONG ONE? There was no RAILROADING GOING ON! THOSE were the FACTS....his poor choice in ATTORNEYS meant he didn't get the best LIAR TO SPIN THINGS in his favor! It meant that he was TRIED ON THE FACTS!

 

[shesulsa]

[playnice]G Ketchmark / shesulsa[/playnice]

 

[sgtmac_46]

[playnice]G Ketchmark / shesulsa[/playnice]

My apologies...the 'railroading' comment was a bit irritating...i'll drop it at that.

 

[Drac]

It seems NO ONE want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a FREE seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..

Follow up...We had 6 people attend, no one from my department could make it despite assurances by a few that they would be there...Of the 6 that showed 4 were DT instructors and 1 had experience with EPAK...All them are STILL active in teaching and learning, one had mucho training in Pen-Jak-Silat..So we spent 2 hrs trading techinques...

 

[sgtmac_46]

Follow up...We had 6 people attend, no one from my department could make it despite assurances by a few that they would be there...Of the 6 that showed 4 were DT instructors and 1 had experience with EPAK...All them are STILL active in teaching and learning, one had mucho training in Pen-Jak-Silat..So we spent 2 hrs trading techinques...

6 isn't bad. Especially if you learned something as well!

 

[Drac]

6 isn't bad. Especially if you learned something as well!

Yep..All that attended learned something and we instructors also took something home as well...All in all not a bad Sunday..