Defensive Tactics...

[sgtmac_46]

The problem with LE DT, as I see it, is that they spend the majority of their time working on techniques designed to restrain the subject with the minimum damage/danger possible (which is a necessary skill, don't get me wrong) and not enough time emphasising officer survival and learning to fight (which is a critical skill).
As a result you have people that are really going to be in trouble if they're dealing with someone that is trying to kill them (like the traffic stop vid in the other thread) as opposed to someone who is just "resisting."
I've been certified in one DT system (CLAMP) and one of my students is a certified instructor in both CLAMP and PPCT. From seeing material from these systems, I think there is some decent material; however, when you only spend a couple of weeks on the stuff during academy, and maybe 8 hours a year in re-cert, how good are you really gonna be? Of course, the same thing would apply if they were teaching better material...you're only going to be good if you put in the time to practice.

I think one of the main problems with LE as regards training are that the departments don't want to spend the money for the constant training and are too concerned with civil liability.
Then again, many if not most, officers do not have the proper mindset and therefore will not train unless the dept. is paying the bills (meaning they often only get the bare minimum).

just my $0.02

I think Larry Lein's Clamp/Grasp are excellent systems, and the Clamp technique, which is really a modified kimura applied for different angles, is an excellent technique in that it is effective and EXTREMELY simple to teach and retain. Larry and his company are standup people who have done a good job of putting ego aside and trying to develop an excellent product that integrates well with other systems....something I can't say for everyone out there, some of whom have developed egos of the sort that says 'You MUST use my system exclusively, or else we won't support your training'....but those folks will remain nameless.

FYI Larry Lein has a 40hour DT general course that does a decent job of covering some of the introductory necessary skills required of a new Defensive Tactics instructor....it's all basic instructor stuff, but that's what's needed in a course of that nature.....everything from OC spray, to clamp, to baton, to general use of force case law and documentation.....I highly recommend it.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Whats the general opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?

From my experience, Blauer's got a quality program....I think is 'Ballistic Micro-Fights' concept is a good way of building confidence and pushing students and preparing them for some semblance of a real world conflict.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association. It's creeping along...

I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve. There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have. But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.

A law suit might change that situation at an agency where the lawsuit is targeted....but it's not likely to change the overall pattern and here's why....

.....Police work is an EVER EXPANDING mess of varied tasks.....every year society adds a whole new laundry list of things police are expected to do, learn, train, log, report, etc....unlike Firemen, who society understood must be left alone to train for and prepare for their PRIMARY responsibility of 'fighting fires and saving lives and property', police are considered societies CATCHALLS for every **** job they can think of! Oh, and by the way, can you GET all those jobs done without a budget increase or more overtime? Thanks!

In short, the 40, 50, and 60+ hour WORK week of the average cop is FILLED with a variety of job tasks to complete......there's the job of working the road, conducting investigations, attending in-house training on every thing from DWI enforcement, Homeland security, Sexual harassment, Racial Profiling, Firearms range training, Driving training, computer training, DT training, special assignments, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc........Police Departments are OVERWHELMED and UNDER FUNDED AND STAFFED to fullfil all of the requirements assigned them.

Is Defensive Tactics training VITAL when the crap hits the fan? ABSOLUTELY! Is it a priority in THIS WORK WEEK? Well, not if we're going by the calender agenda.....remind the boss in the fall....if the new budget comes in.

 

[Cruentus]

First, to clear up a point of confusion on yours and many parts, a 'rear naked choke' or as it is referred to under some systems, a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, is NOT by any state law i'm aware of, and certainly not in Missouri 'Lethal Force', or force likely to cause death or serious physical injury.....what you are basing your statement on is the fact that some DEPARTMENTS elevate the LVNR and similar versions of the rear naked choke to the level of lethal force.....but that elevation is artificial policy of those departments only.

The LVNR, which is actually the specific name of the Job Functional system taught by Kansas City PD since the early 1970's....as NLETC, the company responsible for LVNR training maintains 'Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!' http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1

Having said that, I consider some sort of well researched version of the rear naked choke, hidaka jime, LVNR, whatever you call it, and ESSENTIAL skill for a police officer. Why? Because, despite the fantasy fears of many administrators, who have based their understanding of the risks of rear naked chokes on myths, lies and half-truths, it is a safe and HIGHLY effective technique that can be used on the street....in fact one of THE most effective single physical techniques an officer can have in his or her tool box to save his life and regain control of a situation.

Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...

C.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...

C.

It definately varies per state Cruentus.

 

[Drac]

It seems NO ONE want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a FREE seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It seems NO ONE want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a FREE seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..

Sorry to hear that Drac but unfortunately I am not surprised. I am trying to jump start LEO training up here to and even though several train with me it is challenging. April is LEO Appreciation month and they can train for free. It will be interesting to see how many come and partake of the training.

 

[jks9199]

Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...

C.

The general definition of "lethal force" is force which is reasonably likely to result in serious bodily injury or death. The rear naked choke, as practiced in most martial arts, definitely qualifies since it involves restricting blood flow to the brain, which, if maintained long enough, will cause death. There are a few variations that have been marketed to law enforcement under several different names (carotid restraint, lateral vascular compression, etc.), and has the potential to be a very useful technique. But many agencies will still classify it as a near-lethal or lethal force technique, because it can easily slip into a true respiratory choke is not applied correctly, and because it involves the blood flow to the brain. You do that with someone whose brain chemistry is already messed up by drugs or alcohol, and you're asking for a law suit. The folks in risk assessment generally aren't willing to sign off on that as a routine technique... Hell, many agencies are still placing the Taser and other ECD devices as near-lethal force.

Each working officer should be intimately familiar with their agency's use of force model, and if that officer happens to be a practicing martial artist as well, they should know how to fit their own martial arts training into the use of force model.

 

[tellner]

One thing that just doesn't make sense is the baton.

It doesn't restrain. It can be deadly but isn't a very effective killing tool. Up until the introduction of the snap whip it was frequently left in cars. It's not a good shield. Its best use seems to be as a badge of authority - a vestige of the tipstaff.

The sap has a bad reputation, but it seems like a better tool from a purely technical perspective. Properly designed and used it can be anything from gentle remonstrance to thermonuclear war. It's compact. It's very effective. And we don't carry warrants rolled up inside pseudo-Roman maces anymore.

 

[jks9199]

One thing that just doesn't make sense is the baton.

It doesn't restrain. It can be deadly but isn't a very effective killing tool. Up until the introduction of the snap whip it was frequently left in cars. It's not a good shield. Its best use seems to be as a badge of authority - a vestige of the tipstaff.

The sap has a bad reputation, but it seems like a better tool from a purely technical perspective. Properly designed and used it can be anything from gentle remonstrance to thermonuclear war. It's compact. It's very effective. And we don't carry warrants rolled up inside pseudo-Roman maces anymore.

Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control. They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases. They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm. But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options. I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.

Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Just wanted to mention without being able to follow up on this after this post that "choke" holds (or holds around the neck that restrict blood flow or air that could result in unconciousness) are considered lethal force in Michigan last time I checked. Just throwing it out there; this stuff might vary per state...

C.

By state statute or by department ordinance.....if it's a state statute i'd be very interested in seeing how the legislature wrote that law......if it exists it's an asinine law.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It seems NO ONE want to do any DT training..Father Greek and I holding a FREE seminar for LEO's on a Sunday, we will even issue a certificate of attendance so you can have it put in your personal file if your department is big on that kind of stuff..Despite numerous snail mails and e mails we still only got a few..Very sad..

You have to charge something for your training.....if you do it 'free' the thought process is that it's not good training....wrong headed, I know, but most folks equate 'free' with of no value.....but if you charge them something, oddly they start thinking it's worth something. Weird, I know, but start charging.

 

[theletch1]

I notice that the PPCT course teaches only two joint locks. Why just two? Seems that the ability to lock up an individual without using a baton, OC or voltage would drop a departments liability. I understand that locks are a bit more difficult to learn than strikes but they can be much more effective than a strike.

Also, I'm curious as to how in-depth the gun disarm training is.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The general definition of "lethal force" is force which is reasonably likely to result in serious bodily injury or death. The rear naked choke, as practiced in most martial arts, definitely qualifies since it involves restricting blood flow to the brain, which, if maintained long enough, will cause death. There are a few variations that have been marketed to law enforcement under several different names (carotid restraint, lateral vascular compression, etc.), and has the potential to be a very useful technique. But many agencies will still classify it as a near-lethal or lethal force technique, because it can easily slip into a true respiratory choke is not applied correctly, and because it involves the blood flow to the brain. You do that with someone whose brain chemistry is already messed up by drugs or alcohol, and you're asking for a law suit. The folks in risk assessment generally aren't willing to sign off on that as a routine technique... Hell, many agencies are still placing the Taser and other ECD devices as near-lethal force.

Each working officer should be intimately familiar with their agency's use of force model, and if that officer happens to be a practicing martial artist as well, they should know how to fit their own martial arts training into the use of force model.

Since 99.9999% of folks who have been on the receiving end of a rear-naked choke are still alive, with no permanent, or even temporary, physical disability, that really refutes the theory that it's 'likely to cause death or serious physical injury.

A GUNSHOT wound or a STABBING is 'likely to cause death or serious physical injury' no matter where you get shot or stabbed.....the key is that when used correctly, the LVNR and it's relation are LESS likely to cause death or serious physical injury than many OTHER techniques employed by law enforcement.....perception is NOT reality.

Furthermore, it's important to note that CORRELATION does not equal CAUSATION, that notion is a logical fallacy.....i'm glad you brought up the Taser.....and I should note Pepper Spray, 'Hog Tieing', Baton Strikes and many other uses of force, have one thing in common......over the years they have been pointed to as 'causing deaths'.......and to the same people.......overweight, middle aged men on hyper-stimulants like cocaine and methamphetamines who are od'ing and actively resisting the police.

Now, if a certain number of hyper-stimulant users died years ago having the LVNR used on them, and departments switched to Pepperspray as the primary force used on resisters, and the same percentage of people kept dying, and departments switched to the Taser, and the same percentage of people kept dying......is it logical to assume that it was those three varied uses of force that killed them? OBVIOUSLY NOT! The reality is that THOSE people are in medical crisis, they are violent, and unpredictable, and they are VERY LIKELY going to DIE as a result of their hyper-stimulant overdose, not as a result of the force used to prevent them from harming others.

And as for 'risking lawsuits' you risk lawsuits simply by throwing on a uniform and doing your job....and the jackass' in 'Risk assessment' like to make policies that they themselves aren't charged with following! My deparment INSISTED to our liability company that WE WILL NOT abandon our use of either Batons or the LVNR.....and risk the lives of OFFICERS, so that the city can get a better rate on their INSURANCE!

If you get high or drunk, you do that voluntarily.....and if you do enough cocaine or methamphetamines to kill and ELEPHANT, and therefore 'mess up your brain chemistry' YOU are responsible for your state of mind.....courts years ago concluded that voluntary intoxication is not a defense.....so why are we now trying to use it as a defense for people who assault the public and police proclaiming they should be treated with kid gloves because they might die?

 

[sgtmac_46]

I notice that the PPCT course teaches only two joint locks. Why just two? Seems that the ability to lock up an individual without using a baton, OC or voltage would drop a departments liability. I understand that locks are a bit more difficult to learn than strikes but they can be much more effective than a strike.

Also, I'm curious as to how in-depth the gun disarm training is.

I won't comment on my opinion of PPCT.....but I will say that, while joint locks (especially from a standing position) and pressure points have a purpose......they are overated when dealing with intoxicated and drugged and pain resistant individuals......but they do work outstandingly well on cooperative students in a classroom.

As for gun disarming, that's an interesting area.......more time is spent on gun retention, which is as it should be......gun disarming assumes someone is pointing a gun at you already, and I, while some training is in order, I really think it's unrealistic in many ways.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control. They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases. They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm. But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options. I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.

Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.

Officers striking people in the head is a result of poor and inadequate training.....officers who are under trained tend to feel that the strikes taught them are inadequate, and overreact and start hitting folks in the head. But you don't take a tool away because some moron uses it wrong....it's like having a wrongful shooting, and taking all the guns.

What needs to be done, and what I do in my department, is have the officers deploy and use their baton in dynamic situations. In the field I have used my baton exactly ONE TIME for exactly ONE STRIKE against another human being in my 11 year career....but I was glad to have it. Pepperspray had been ineffective.......but a single strike from a baton that impacted his hip changed his entire orientation and stopped his aggression.

Pepperspray runs out of fluid, or propellant leaks and wind conditions can change everything......Tasers batteries die, electronics malfunction, or the cartridge is defective.......but a baton is a stick! It's a simple weapon that is HIGHLY reliable.

 

[theletch1]

I won't comment on my opinion of PPCT.....but I will say that, while joint locks (especially from a standing position) and pressure points have a purpose......they are overated when dealing with intoxicated and drugged and pain resistant individuals......but they do work outstandingly well on cooperative students in a classroom.

A joint lock, if done properly, isn't as much about pain compliance as it is about skeletal locking. Many are immobilizing techniques that use the leverage of one joint against another to stop movement in a particular direction. Pain compliance is a great thing against folks that are not, as you say, under the influence of some substance that shuts down pain receptors. By the same token, though, an individual who isn't feeling the pain of a properly applied lock isn't going to feel much from a strike either.

I'm not an LEO but do train a few and have become truly interested in the training (or lack thereof) that is being provided to you guys. I've always said I wouldn't have your job and after talking to many an officer about their lack of solid DT training I'm even more convinced that I couldn't/wouldn't do the job.

 

[tellner]

Batons have a number of good uses, including traps and restraint, and crowd control. They're an effective, less likely to be lethal option in some cases. They're a way to apply more force than empty hands, or at a distance, without resorting to a firearm. But they're also a hold over from "the good old days", before the advent of OC, Tasers and other intermediate force options. I doubt that they'll ever go away completely, but they are not relied upon as much today as they once were.

Many agencies removed the sap from their arsenal because too many skulls got cracked... whether or not they were deserved.

Yeah, true 'dat. My arguments with them are fairly technical and at the margins. They're not useless, but I see them as more a vestige and tradition than the mainstay police tool they used to be. The tipstaff was as much a badge of authority as an actual weapon. Most visible pieces of police equipment really are when you stop and think about them. If you go Clothed in the Majesty of the Law most people won't give you serious trouble. If you're a guy with visible and ugly clothes it's a lot more difficult.

The advent of the PR-24 was the first serious re-examination of their role. They've been declining ever since. I see the ASP as a lot like the cavalry in 1905 - still there, still useful in certain situations, but basically trying to justify its existence in a world which had passed it by.

Riot batons are a specialized tool for a specialized task.

Hitting people in the head with heavy objects is always a lethal idea whether it's polycarbonate, steel, cocobolo or leather and lead. One of the things that struck me (so to speak) about the Rodney King incident was the non-conforming use of the PR-24 as practiced by all of the officers who let adrenaline overcome their frontal lobes. I've got Monadnock's manual lying around somewhere from before that particular debacle. On every single page it says "Do NOT strike suspect in the head". Under stress people with clubs revert past early training to genetic imperative. In this case the genetic imperative goes back to wildebeest thigh bones and Australopithecene sensibilities.

Saps, well, I just like 'em With good training and proper design they can be finely nuanced tools. Heck, I'd like to see them legal in more places for everyday citizens' self defense. They got a bad reputation mostly undeserved just like automatic knives. Oh, and calling sap gloves "balanced driving gloves" as some officers are now doing doesn't fool anyone :shrug:

 

[sgtmac_46]

A joint lock, if done properly, isn't as much about pain compliance as it is about skeletal locking. Many are immobilizing techniques that use the leverage of one joint against another to stop movement in a particular direction. Pain compliance is a great thing against folks that are not, as you say, under the influence of some substance that shuts down pain receptors. By the same token, though, an individual who isn't feeling the pain of a properly applied lock isn't going to feel much from a strike either.

I'm not an LEO but do train a few and have become truly interested in the training (or lack thereof) that is being provided to you guys. I've always said I wouldn't have your job and after talking to many an officer about their lack of solid DT training I'm even more convinced that I couldn't/wouldn't do the job.

My point being that even someone who feels no pain....will still lose conciousness from a properly applied blood choke......joint locks can and do work....but they require precise timing to apply in a dynamic situation versus the static training of a training room. I think too many officers get a false sense of security by how easily their partner taps to a joint lock or pain compliance technique....and fail to appreciate that in a real altercation it really isn't that simple.

As such, I think Judo/Jui-Jitsu has benefited me the most due, as much as anything else, to randori with a resistant combative opponent.

But you're correct.....there is very little adequate DT training.....of the training i've received, much of it has been on my own time, and a great deal at my own expense.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yeah, true 'dat. My arguments with them are fairly technical and at the margins. They're not useless, but I see them as more a vestige and tradition than the mainstay police tool they used to be. The tipstaff was as much a badge of authority as an actual weapon. Most visible pieces of police equipment really are when you stop and think about them. If you go Clothed in the Majesty of the Law most people won't give you serious trouble. If you're a guy with visible and ugly clothes it's a lot more difficult.

The advent of the PR-24 was the first serious re-examination of their role. They've been declining ever since. I see the ASP as a lot like the cavalry in 1905 - still there, still useful in certain situations, but basically trying to justify its existence in a world which had passed it by.

Riot batons are a specialized tool for a specialized task.

Hitting people in the head with heavy objects is always a lethal idea whether it's polycarbonate, steel, cocobolo or leather and lead. One of the things that struck me (so to speak) about the Rodney King incident was the non-conforming use of the PR-24 as practiced by all of the officers who let adrenaline overcome their frontal lobes. I've got Monadnock's manual lying around somewhere from before that particular debacle. On every single page it says "Do NOT strike suspect in the head". Under stress people with clubs revert past early training to genetic imperative. In this case the genetic imperative goes back to wildebeest thigh bones and Australopithecene sensibilities.

Saps, well, I just like 'em With good training and proper design they can be finely nuanced tools. Heck, I'd like to see them legal in more places for everyday citizens' self defense. They got a bad reputation mostly undeserved just like automatic knives. Oh, and calling sap gloves "balanced driving gloves" as some officers are now doing doesn't fool anyone :shrug:

Actually, I think the 'sabre in 1905' analogy will prove to be incorrect......I suspect the prophesied decline and fall of the 'stick' in police circles will be much like the premature decision to eliminate guns from Jet Fighters under the idea that all this missile technology has made them obsolete......only to find out the HARD WAY that having a fighter armed only with high-tech missiles makes that plane vulnerable in up-close vicious dog fighting.