Defensive first strike

[FearlessFreep]

Last week in class we worked on a spinning back kick as a defensive strike against a rear-leg roundhouse. Thought being that in a rear-leg roundhouse, the body switches stances and it's possible to get the back kick up into the chest before the body gets all the way around (catching them in md-turn as they are facing you) (note: this requires you to throw your back kick like a 'mule-kick' because if it turns into a spinning side-kick, it'll probably take too long to get around)

Anyway, working on the principle of hitting the chest in mid-turn, I've also been thinking of a front-side, hop-to side-kick as a fast-launch defensive kick to stop the roundhouse in mid-turn. I've been working on the speed of my spring and kick to try this out.

Anywone with more experience (being..um...almsot everyone) have thoughts on whether this will work and other kicks that can be used defensively to hit quickly while the others attack is still developing? (Until now, most of my defense has been based on evasion and quick counter-strike)

 

[ArtlessArt]

This is basically the same principle as the back kick...But try using a reverse side kick/jump reverse side kick when a roundhouse from the back leg is still developing. It will usually land in their stomache or chest and their kick will go flying behind you. This is best in an open stance. (opposite legs forward)

Another trick I like to use, especially with a kick that requires the person to entirely shift their body position is to jump into the kick to stall it. This is a bit harder and requires good timing and footwork, but is very effective. (With both young and old sparing partners.)

Thats just my two cents, I'm sure far more experienced people can help you out a lot more than me.

 

[FearlessFreep]

What is a 'reverse side kick'? Is that like a spin? A rear-leg side kick but spinning around first? Other than that, I'm not sure

Another trick I like to use, especially with a kick that requires the person to entirely shift their body position is to jump into the kick to stall it.

Yeah, I mentioned that technique in a thread a few weeks back, I think

 

[TigerWoman]

With you in a right stance-left leg forward-as well as your opponent doing the back leg round kick-you could slide to the right and do a left leg crescent, or roundkick as he comes around, also.

Regular defense is to slide back and do a counter round back with your right back leg. TW

 

[Adept]

Anywone with more experience (being..um...almsot everyone) have thoughts on whether this will work and other kicks that can be used defensively to hit quickly while the others attack is still developing? (Until now, most of my defense has been based on evasion and quick counter-strike)

Try this exercise to help you understand reaction times. Get a partner, and have them point there finger at your solar plexus. The point of their finger should be one inch from your chest.

Now, what they have to do is try and touch your chest before you can catch their hand. Sounds easy, right? I mean, their finger is only one inch away. You have your arms hanging by your sides.

Now, the kicker is, they arent allowed to start moving their hand until you move yours. Your hands have to travel from hanging limply at your sides, while they just have to move forward one inch. And yet, you will catch them before they touch you, every time.

What this displays is that the amount of time it takes for the brain to perceive a threat and co-ordinate a response (even if it is reflexive or very well conditioned) is often longer than the amount of time it will take the strike to reach you.

To that end, I would consider countering a kick from the rear leg of my opponent with a back kick to be needlessly risky. Why bother turning around to kick from behind, when a kick from the front will be easier to control, more accurate, and faster?

Or even better, 'scoop' his leg out of the way, and counter-strike to the body.

 

[Zepp]

I don't spar under WTF rules, so take my advice with an extra grain of salt in this case.

Generally, I don't use spinning techniques in sparring, unless I think it will catch my partner by surprise. To counter a rear-leg kick, spinning seems superfluous to me. With practice, you should be able to throw your lead-leg kicks fast enough to counter a rear-leg kick, assuming that you see it coming. Particularly if you practice sliding roundhouses and sidekicks. You can also try getting super close to them, while their kick is still chambered, thereby "jamming" their kick. Of course, if you're not allowed to punch to the head, you may have limited options for attack at that range.

Failing that, I usually just try to sway my torso out of the way of a roundhouse, or (last choice, but effective) just absorb the impact using both my forearms.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I understand where you are coming from on the spinning kicks, particularly a back kick, being...risky. For myself, I am not comfortable enough with either the speed or the aim of my back kick to really feel confident using it in a manner that requires it to be faster than my opponents attack. This is why I've been working on front-side kicks (side kick and front kick) to apply the same principle (interrupt the kick by hitting the chest)

 

[TigerWoman]

After you practice spin sidekicks alot, they become second nature for any frontal attack or a round kick becoming frontal. Doesn't mean that you have to do them all the time but I find them very effective at stopping a kick early. I see them move an inch and I spin and continue the attack after that. TW.

 

[ArtlessArt]

What is a 'reverse side kick'? Is that like a spin? A rear-leg side kick but spinning around first? Other than that, I'm not sure

You've got the idea. If you can get it down, it's a nice little trick.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Thanks for the encouragement on the spinning kicks..

 

[Spookey]

Fearless,

The spinning back kick is a great counter to either a rear leg or a front leg round kick. Your theories (and or instruction) is correct, but I incourage you to consider one more peice of information.

Using the spinning back kick as a counter (or preimptive strike) against a rear leg round kick does not necessarily require you to execute the kick faster then your opponent (remember reaction time is most always slower then the initial action). The spin (spinning back kick) negates much of the need to be "faster of the draw" by moving the target out of the line of fire. When you begin to spin, your chest (the intended target) will move and your shoulder will be inside the kicks target area (their shin at your shoulder), the round kick has been defeted. Now, simply execute a back kick, BANG! You have allowed the opponent to position himself with his chest directly in the line of your foot. Being that you began to move as he began to kick you will typically execute your kick just at the end of his kick (not faster but one step behind) leaving him limited in his mobility do to his comitment to the round kick.

The same applies to the angled jumping side (front or round) kick you spoke of earlier. By jumping at an angle you have moved the target and therefore dodged the kick. Now you simply fire your own as the opponent is preoccupied with reganing his footing!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

P.S. Although I am a student first and foremost, your commitment to learning (and the commitment of other like yourself) is all the reason I need to teach that of which I am a student!

 

[Spookey]

Fearless,

I submitted the previous post prior to reading your thread regarding distance. Please refer back to your thread as a point of logical thought regarding my statements above. You actually explain the same thing as I did (as relates to moving the target)!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[TigerWoman]

Using the spinning back kick as a counter (or preimptive strike) against a rear leg round kick does not necessarily require you to execute the kick faster then your opponent (remember reaction time is most always slower then the initial action). The spin (spinning back kick) negates much of the need to be "faster of the draw" by moving the target out of the line of fire. ind) leaving him limited in his mobility do to his comitment to the round kick.

I disagree with you on that. If your opponent is slow, take all the time you want but a fast round kick has to be countered by a faster spin side. Also that may not be a round kick coming around, it could be sidekick, as we chamber them both close into the body. If its a sidekick, turning your back and being slow in the spin, could result to a nice kick in the back. That is why I finally got my chestgear with that spine shield because I spin alot. Just practice it alot, its a very valuable tool. TW

 

[Teh Tot]

Last week in class we worked on a spinning back kick as a defensive strike against a rear-leg roundhouse. Thought being that in a rear-leg roundhouse, the body switches stances and it's possible to get the back kick up into the chest before the body gets all the way around (catching them in md-turn as they are facing you) (note: this requires you to throw your back kick like a 'mule-kick' because if it turns into a spinning side-kick, it'll probably take too long to get around)

Anyway, working on the principle of hitting the chest in mid-turn, I've also been thinking of a front-side, hop-to side-kick as a fast-launch defensive kick to stop the roundhouse in mid-turn. I've been working on the speed of my spring and kick to try this out.

Anywone with more experience (being..um...almsot everyone) have thoughts on whether this will work and other kicks that can be used defensively to hit quickly while the others attack is still developing? (Until now, most of my defense has been based on evasion and quick counter-strike)

All of those tecniques are great in sparring, The back kick especially. If you can get that kick to run up their arm you can use it to knock out an opponent, or if you run the kick up the leg hit them hard in a scoring area. The other tecnique is good for quick scoring and suprising them when you don't stop and block.

 

[Spookey]

Dear Ma'am,


Most people do not chamber a rear leg side kick in the same manor as a rear leg round kick (in my experiences)....Also, the spin should not simply turn your back on the opponent but should reposition you as to be out of the line of fire...A round kick to the chest and a side kick to the ribs will still generally be targeted on the same vertical plain. By moving out with the spin you are moving your vertical plain so as not to match the same plain as the intended target.

Each person has there own level of experience and evenly matched experiences still form differences in opinion and out come. One of the reasons I frequent this forum is for the ability to discuss and disagree in a functional and friendly environment (THanks)!

Also, one of the blocks I use most commonly is a low reverse knifehand block (low ridgehand block for the WTF guys and gals). Sidekick, Frontkick, and Roundkicks can be swept away during your "spin" using this technique. Watch out for the hook kick if you do not lean away during the execution of the spinning kick though! POW...it hurts!

TAEKWON!
Spookey

 

[FearlessFreep]

If I'm following this, I think the setup will determine a bit where you end up in relationship to the opponent.

In a closed stance (say..left leg forward on both parties), if the opponent is throwing a rear leg roundhouse, then a spinng back kick is going to come with the right leg (rear leg)as well and you will be turning into their kick so you stay more in their original target area. You may be off-center from a side-kick, but you will be moving into the path of a roundhouse.

In an open stance (say...they have left leg forward and you have right), if the opponent is throwing a rear leg roundhouse, then a spinning back kick is going to come from the left leg around, moving your body off-line of center but also further from the roundhouse.

If you go around into a spinning side-kick instead of just a back kick, though, I don't think that (body repositioning in regards to the opponents strike) applies because you are bringing your body around before you launch the kick, anyway

This is just kinda mental thinking this morning...could be off..

 

[FearlessFreep]

Most people do not chamber a rear leg side kick in the same manor as a rear leg round kick (in my experiences)

I think it depends on where you are talking about. At least at our school, the front kick (we call it a snap kick), the side kick, and the roundhouse all start with driving the leg to bring the knee up pointing at the target. So that initial move is the same. From there, it changes. The snap kicks just launches the foot forward, the roundhouse turns the hip over and swings the foot horizontally, the sidekick turns the thigh in and then launches the foot forward from the hip.

Biggest difference between the side kick and roundhouse is that the roundhouse is treated like the foot is the end of a whip so in one fluid motion the knee goes forward and the foot whips around, so you never bring the knee or thigh back into the body like you do in a side-kick

So if you break it down into steps. The first step is the same on all three, but then they diverge.

I think, hopefully, you would be able to react on the first motion, though, and that you are already moving defensively by the time it becomes clear where their hip and thigh are going

I noticed I started getting much better total speed and power with my spinning back kick when I started mentally approaching it as simply "Drive the heel off the floor into the chest" as a straight line which happens to bring the foot chambered into the hip and happens to spin the body around, rather than as I was first thinking about it where I was more focused on the spin and the chamber, which caused me to 'hitch' a bit through the motion and lose speed.

 

[Zepp]

Most people do not chamber a rear leg side kick in the same manor as a rear leg round kick (in my experiences)....

Well, actually you can learn chamber a roundhouse kick in almost the same position as a sidekick, with both the lead and rear legs. This can confuse your opponent so that they don't realize which kick you're throwing. I find that chambering a roundhouse this way doesn't take away from the kick's power either.

Also, the spin should not simply turn your back on the opponent but should reposition you as to be out of the line of fire...A round kick to the chest and a side kick to the ribs will still generally be targeted on the same vertical plain. By moving out with the spin you are moving your vertical plain so as not to match the same plain as the intended target.

Doesn't this tend to unbalance you too much? It does to me. Unless you mean that you step out of the kick's way, and then begin to spin?

 

[TX_BB]

Doesn't this tend to unbalance you too much? It does to me. Unless you mean that you step out of the kick's way, and then begin to spin?

No step should be necessary. If you are standing left foot forward and spin on the ball of the left foot you have no choice but to move the body from the right side of the left foot to the right side of the left foot. To throw the spinning back kick you need to be committed and confident with the kick.

 

[Zepp]

...the right side of the left foot to the right side of the left foot...

Uh, could you say that another way please?