Defense against a ????

[Rick Wade]

There are several Techniques in which I have started teaching differently because if you read the manuals example “sword and hammer". What is it a defense against? A right shoulder grab from the side? It wasn't until a couple of belts latter that I had learned that this is really a preemptive strike against a punch. Even when you see these techniques demonstrated the Yuki rarely if ever acts like he is going to swing. example now I am not bashing the AKKI I really like the organization and Mr. Mills is great. In so many of our techniques there is a single lapel grab and we just whip the living dog crap out of this guy for what? uh he grap my lapel officer and this shirt cost $250 from Ralph Lauren. Kenpo is a great system and Mr. Parker did a great job answering most questions before they were asked.

Should we teach what the real defense is or should we let the students figure it out.

Respectfully

 

[loki09789]

There are several Techniques in which I have started teaching differently because if you read the manuals example “sword and hammer". What is it a defense against? A right shoulder grab from the side? It wasn't until a couple of belts latter that I had learned that this is really a preemptive strike against a punch. Even when you see these techniques demonstrated the Yuki rarely if ever acts like he is going to swing. example now I am not bashing the AKKI I really like the organization and Mr. Mills is great. In so many of our techniques there is a single lapel grab and we just whip the living dog crap out of this guy for what? uh he grap my lapel officer and this shirt cost $250 from Ralph Lauren. Kenpo is a great system and Mr. Parker did a great job answering most questions before they were asked.

Should we teach what the real defense is or should we let the students figure it out.

Respectfully

Sounds like typical 'overskill' theory in action. One basic motion has multiple applications or fits multiple scenarios. Also, training the response patterns of techniques like lapel grabs for technical proficiency first and then later for tactical application will help the student know when to stop at the appropriate point in the process of responding - as long as the instructor is familiar with state force penal code and how the art fits into it.

This is my concern with technical/tactical awareness in instruction. In my TKD days, a great instructor told me that he personally used his 'high kick/flexibility' goal of training to 'over train' his technique in real application. If he could kick to the head fast, focused and hard enough to be effective, his waste and lower kicks would be unstoppable (theoretically).

Drill the techniques all the way through for form, power, focus and physical/reactionary speed, but train to apply them develop tactical and perceptual/awareness/sensitivity in realistic scenario/context.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I say scare the crap out of them with what it could be, but not so much that they quit training. :asian:
Sean

 

[jeffkyle]

I say scare the crap out of them with what it could be, but not so much that they quit training. :asian:
Sean

That goes right along with your signature. :uhyeah: artyon:

 

[Gary Crawford]

I have enjoyed learning several "lapel/kimono grab" techniques over the years,but I have always questioned the practicality of this.Here is my reasoning:Those types of grabs rarely happen in the real world and the few times I have seen it done,it was done by someone wanting to only threaten/intimidate someone.In real life,the most common confrontation that usually leads to violence is the "get in your face" aproach.This is usually done with arms at side(great position for the suprise hook punch).I personally prefer to not let a threatening person get that close.Anyway,I do enjoy learning any technique that might be usefull someday(whether I think It's practical or not)

 

[KenpoTess]

I would say, Teach the basics.. when they are mastered- the 'Equation Formula' can be utilitzed for any tec.

~Tess

 

[Thesemindz]

You know, as an irresponsible, untrained, angry young boy, I once grabbed the lapel of a guy who was harassing me in high school. Thank god he didn't know twin lapel grab, or it might have gone bad for me.

I think it's important to teach the student from day one that the attack is a grab, the possible follow up could be a strike, kick, knife, etc. The student practices the technique in the ideal phase, and then, only after getting the technique down solid, not perfect just solid, you play with introducing what ifs, such as checking the checks and follow up striking.


-Rob

 

[Les]

There are several Techniques in which I have started teaching differently because if you read the manuals example ?sword and hammer". What is it a defense against? A right shoulder grab from the side? It wasn't until a couple of belts latter that I had learned that this is really a preemptive strike against a punch.

So how are you teaching Sword and Hammer? I teach it with several variations, but all involve a punch.

Even when you see these techniques demonstrated the Yuki rarely if ever acts like he is going to swing. example

Possibly, the attacker isn't following through with the punch because the video clip is trying to show the application of certain principles within the technique. The variation of Sword and Hammer that Mr Mills taught me is faster, more effective and safer. It definitely involves the attacker throwing a punch.

now I am not bashing the AKKI

Thats good to hear, all Kenpo groups have their merits, and should be treated with respect.

In so many of our techniques there is a single lapel grab and we just whip the living dog crap out of this guy for what? uh he grap my lapel officer and this shirt cost $250 from Ralph Lauren.

In every technique in the Kenpo system we are taught that there has to be a margin of error, and many of the moves in the technique are 'what if' factors. Would you expect to do all of say, Five Swords on the street? Many would say if you have to take it past the uppercut you've messed up big time.

Kenpo is a great system and Mr. Parker did a great job answering most questions before they were asked.

No-one who's been there will argue that point.

Should we teach what the real defense is or should we let the students figure it out.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by teach what the real defence is.

On the subject of the manuals, they're frequently incorrect. My Orange Handbook says the attack for Dance of Death is a "Right straight punch, right leg forward."

I have a theory about why, but thats another story.

Les

 

[Rick Wade]

All I am trying to ask is when you teach sword and hammer do you teach that it is a defense against a right flanking shoulder grab or is it a defense against a right shoulder grab that will quickly be followed by a punch. Same with alternating mace is it a defense against a push or a defense against like a school yard push that will be followed on by a punch after he pushes you. So now these become more of a preemptive strike. I think that I try to set paint a picture for the students and what some of these scenarios will be so that when and if they happen they may be able to recognize them a little earlier?

On another note:
Les hey I wasn't bashing the AKKI that was the only clip I could find on the net with the example I was talking about. I teach the technique exactly the same with the exception that I have the attacker **** his right hand like he is going to punch. But other than that the core technique is exactly the same. I have several AKKI friends that I work out with when they come to town. I have spoken to Mr. Mills on several occasions and was even invited to the last Vegas camp (as a non AKKI member). I would never bash your guys system or Mr. Mills. I would not betray that trust. Heck if there was an AKKI school here I would have been a member years ago. If I came across like I was attacking you guys I apologize that was not my intent. I was just trying to throw some new ideas out there as far as teachings techniques. I was just trying to share some information that was shared with me. Isn't that what the Kenpo community is all about or should be about? Any way Les my apologies if i offended you I'm sorry.

Very Respectfully
Rick

 

[Rick Wade]

I would say, Teach the basics.. when they are mastered- the 'Equation Formula' can be utilitzed for any tec.

~Tess

Well put and I agree just like delayed sword orinally written for a left lapel grab with the right hand but i think most schools teach it against a right punch now.

 

[Rick Wade]

I have enjoyed learning several "lapel/kimono grab" techniques over the years,but I have always questioned the practicality of this.Here is my reasoning:Those types of grabs rarely happen in the real world and the few times I have seen it done,it was done by someone wanting to only threaten/intimidate someone.In real life,the most common confrontation that usually leads to violence is the "get in your face" aproach.This is usually done with arms at side(great position for the suprise hook punch).I personally prefer to not let a threatening person get that close.Anyway,I do enjoy learning any technique that might be usefull someday(whether I think It's practical or not)

Great now this is what I am talking about recognizing a situation what will the oppent do and then for gary her unlease five swords on him he is already close. For instance. mental note I have always wanteded to do five swords for real.

 

[Rick Wade]

Sounds like typical 'overskill' theory in action. One basic motion has multiple applications or fits multiple scenarios. Also, training the response patterns of techniques like lapel grabs for technical proficiency first and then later for tactical application will help the student know when to stop at the appropriate point in the process of responding - as long as the instructor is familiar with state force penal code and how the art fits into it.

This is my concern with technical/tactical awareness in instruction. In my TKD days, a great instructor told me that he personally used his 'high kick/flexibility' goal of training to 'over train' his technique in real application. If he could kick to the head fast, focused and hard enough to be effective, his waste and lower kicks would be unstoppable (theoretically).

Drill the techniques all the way through for form, power, focus and physical/reactionary speed, but train to apply them develop tactical and perceptual/awareness/sensitivity in realistic scenario/context.

I agree with your 3rd paragraph however your 1st para sounds like typical overskill theory in action? what exactly do you mean. I'm originally from Alabama please explain.

 

[Les]

All I am trying to ask is when you teach sword and hammer do you teach that it is a defense against a right flanking shoulder grab or is it a defense against a right shoulder grab that will quickly be followed by a punch.

I teach it with the attack coming from 3 o'clock. The attacker grabs the shoulder with the left hand, and throws the right punch.

I also teach it in a senario where you have turned to walk away and the attacker grabs your shoulder and pulls you back round as he throws the punch. This puts the attacker somewhere between 3.30 and 5.30 depending on the strength of the pull. (This variation allows your students to explore borrowed force) It's difficult to explain with the written word, so feel free to send me an airline ticket

Les hey I wasn't bashing the AKKI that was the only clip I could find on the net with the example I was talking about. If I came across like I was attacking you guys I apologize that was not my intent.

Rick, I didn't for one moment think you were. I was simply taking the opportunity to express my belief that we should all be concentrating on the Kenpo, not the varouus associations. If I gave the wrong impression please accept MY apologies.

I was just trying to throw some new ideas out there as far as teachings techniques. I was just trying to share some information that was shared with me. Isn't that what the Kenpo community is all about or should be about?

You are right on the button there, I'm in total agreement with you.

Any way Les my apologies if i offended you I'm sorry.

No apology is necessary. We're on the same page with this.

With respect,

Les

 

[guito]

I believe that once the drill or the technique is learn by the students they have another alternative which they can defense and those not have to be the same attack that we practice in the dojo or studio.that's why we have to practice everything in the curriculum because we never know when or how we going to used.

 

[loki09789]

I agree with your 3rd paragraph however your 1st para sounds like typical overskill theory in action? what exactly do you mean. I'm originally from Alabama please explain.

The point is that based on one of the first things I learned from my Kenpo training about technique aquisition (form, power, focus, speed) that you learn the technique as technique first (in the air, with a partner who only acts as a reference) from beginning to end. You learn it as a basic response to a simple attack first. Then, as you progress, a technique (Kimono Grab, wrist grab) is no longer just a technique for certain attacks, but becomes a series of motions that can neutralize a type of threat (thrusting motions, arcing motions...) from certain directions/angles.

Overskill is just training a response that, if take to it's completion, could equate to lethal force with any of the 'techniques' that I learned.

Once the technique is memorized and can be reproduced to a working level of cooridnation and effectiveness, you beginning applying it for tactical proficiency with more and more realistic scenario training (more realistic threats, more intense force applied during the simulation....) so that you can begin making better decisions on when in the sequence of 'overskilled' technical motions to stop based when and how the 'attacker' no longer poses a reasonable threat and you can/should escape.

So, I guess the point of my comment is that students will need to make discoveries on their own, but those discoveries will also depend on the instructors knowledge and mastery of the art at higher levels of understanding and his/her ability to guide students to achieve that higher understanding too - off course with good work and personal effort. I am not a fan of spoon feeding.