defence against dogs........

[MA-Caver]

http://www.breedclub.org/malfaq.htm
This may help eh?

 

[sgtmac_46]

http://www.breedclub.org/malfaq.htm
This may help eh?

Nice website on malinois. Anyone who is seriously wanting to understand dog aggression should research it on www.leerburg.com. In addition, there's some good video of what a trained K9 looks like during an attack at http://www.tiekerhook.com/ just go to the videos section, and look at the video on Max to see just what you'd be up against with a trained dog. Fortunately, most trained dogs are in the hands of professional people. There are, however, unscrupulous and unknowledgeable people who get a hard dog for whatever reason and teach them enough to be dangerous. An understanding of dog behavior is more important than tactics, though if you think you make come in contact with this kind of dog tactics wouldn't be a bad thing to consider.

 

[Kane]

You misunderstand my analogy. I did not say a 75 pound dog HITS like a 600 pound linebacker, I said a 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound linebacker....pretty useless, but impressive looking (anyone remember the Fridge Perry?) I think you're a bit over impressed by large dogs, a common misconception held by working dog novices. A 75 pound dog such as a malinois is much more agile than a 150 pound dog. It isn't the overall size of the dog that makes it deadly. Think of the body of the dog as a delivery system for it's main weapon, it's jaws. A malinois is plenty powerful enough and agile enough to get past most of your defenses. You are not quicker than these dogs, and by the time they have bitten into your pectoral muscles, or your back (which is what I train mine to do, hit you from behind and bite you by the shoulder or back muscles or under the arm pit) it's over. They can tear muscle from the bone. Your statement about "Most dogs aren't as savage as many people think" i've already pointed out. 99% of the dogs out there are like you've experienced, weaked-tempered dogs who wouldn't bite any adult who stood their ground. I work with truely rank dogs who's breeding and temperment is solid, they don't run from humans, they don't back down and the only way to stop them is to kill them when they go in to fight drive. Again, your over-emphasis on the size of the dog is much like the over-emphasis on size in humans. A 150 pound dog is like a 600 pound human, with all the restrictions they have. An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter. That's why most American's breed 120 plus pound german shepherds, which aren't as powerful and agile as an 80 pound german shepherd, nor do they have that all important factor known as stamina. That's why there are breed standards, those standards are the physical range where the design and build of a working dog are at their maximum. Telling me that a 75 pound dog can't hurt you as badly as a 150 pound dog, is like saying a 200 pound male fighter can't hurt you as badly as a 600 pound male fighter. It's purely a novice misconception. Finally, temperment is much more important than physical size. A dog with a solid temperment and fight drive is a very dangerous dog indeed. A huge dog with a weak temperment is impressive looking. It's obvious by your over-emphasis on dog sizes that you don't understand temperment when evaluating it's abilities. That's a common problem. If someone wants to learn to defend themselves against dogs, they should start by understanding different dog temperments and what different dog behavior means, not by believing that a 150 pound dog is dangerous and an 80 pound one isn't. Again, most American dog owners and breeders place way too much emphasis on size, which is why Americans mostly breed big, junky dogs. That's also why police departments and the military have to import dogs from Europe, because the Europeans understand the truth...Temperment is the primary concern, followed by physical aspects of the dog. What most people mistake for an aggressive, tough dog is a dog who is just really afraid and has learned to intimidate people by snarling and growling. These dogs are not tough, they are weak-tempered dogs who spend most of their live afraid. A truly rank dog is not intimidated by a human being. I happen to know of a truly rank male German Shepherd working police dog who was doing a building search and ran in to a burglary suspect. The suspect hit the dog in the head with a pipe as hard as he could. The dog immediately attacked the guy and seperated his calf muscle from the leg. That's a fight ending injury, and anyone who thinks they could take this dog in hand to hand combat is deluding themselves. This dog was 85 pounds.

Now you are really overrating the dogs. Okay, maybe I was underrating them a little. However the statement "a 150 dog is like a 600 pound man" is very illogical. Do your realize humans have overpowered leopard and cougars? In the other thread you stated that big cats are impossible to beat without a spear or sword which automatically implies that you think that big cats are better than most dogs as fighters. However people have beaten these cats so I think in general you seem to overrating all animals it seems.


The statement "An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter" is even more absurd. What you are saying is that the laws of nature do not apply to humans, Laws such as size or aggression. A 210 pound fighter human has a good chance in taking down a large leopard and a 600 pound man (who is not obese) has a good chance in taking down a small lion no more than 400 pounds. It is called logic. It is no as if it has been proved that humans are extremely weak because like I said before humans have overpowered leopards and cougars before and these men were not martial artist. Of course it is not normal for such a thing but it shows that many dogs as strong as you think.

I seriously doubt that the German Shepard I fought was a police trained dog. If it was I probably would have had a much tougher time but let me tell you even if the German Shepard is police trained it is not like an 800 pound man. German Shepards are NOT the top in fighting ability. In fact, German Shepards are not true fighting dogs. However yes, a police trained German Shepard would beat most people but I doubt a person who has a high tolerance for pain or is a trained fighter.

Seriously though, the real dogs people really need to worry about besides police trained dogs are American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs. It is NOT there size is what makes them great though it does help, it is the gamebred attitude. This attitude can only be attained after careful selective breeding.

For a large gamebred dog (American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs, ect.), even a trained fighter humans stand little chance but there are even exceptions to that. In Alaska in the early 1900s a man actually challenged a Bulldog to a fight and after a 6 hour fight the man BARELLY won, the dog could barely get up in the end. However the man looked like he had been in a train-wreck but this clearly shows that man can if he puts his heart into it even stop a gamebred dog, though it is no likely.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Now you are really overrating the dogs. Okay, maybe I was underrating them a little. However the statement "a 150 dog is like a 600 pound man" is very illogical. Do your realize humans have overpowered leopard and cougars? In the other thread you stated that big cats are impossible to beat without a spear or sword which automatically implies that you think that big cats are better than most dogs as fighters. However people have beaten these cats so I think in general you seem to overrating all animals it seems.


The statement "An 80 pound dog is like a 210 pound human fighter" is even more absurd. What you are saying is that the laws of nature do not apply to humans, Laws such as size or aggression. A 210 pound fighter human has a good chance in taking down a large leopard and a 600 pound man (who is not obese) has a good chance in taking down a small lion no more than 400 pounds. It is called logic. It is no as if it has been proved that humans are extremely weak because like I said before humans have overpowered leopards and cougars before and these men were not martial artist. Of course it is not normal for such a thing but it shows that many dogs as strong as you think.

I seriously doubt that the German Shepard I fought was a police trained dog. If it was I probably would have had a much tougher time but let me tell you even if the German Shepard is police trained it is not like an 800 pound man. German Shepards are NOT the top in fighting ability. In fact, German Shepards are not true fighting dogs. However yes, a police trained German Shepard would beat most people but I doubt a person who has a high tolerance for pain or is a trained fighter.

Seriously though, the real dogs people really need to worry about besides police trained dogs are American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs. It is NOT there size is what makes them great though it does help, it is the gamebred attitude. This attitude can only be attained after careful selective breeding.

For a large gamebred dog (American Bulldogs, Neo Mastiffs, Tosas, or Bandogs, ect.), even a trained fighter humans stand little chance but there are even exceptions to that. In Alaska in the early 1900s a man actually challenged a Bulldog to a fight and after a 6 hour fight the man BARELLY won, the dog could barely get up in the end. However the man looked like he had been in a train-wreck but this clearly shows that man can if he puts his heart into it even stop a gamebred dog, though it is no likely.

Now i'm starting to become concerned about your logical reasoning ability. I've tried to explain the statement about the 600 pound linebacker several times, and you don't seem to get it. I'm not sure if you can get it. I think you should reread my post, or have someone read it and explain it to you before making such bizarre statements. This is getting very silly. I suggest you not get fighting information from Ripley's believe it or not. The fact that people have managed to fight off big cats is more of a fluke accident, than any real skill. I did find your "A 600 pound man who is not obese" statement to be humorous though. I never met a 600 pound man who wasn't obese. I also haven't met any who could run 1 1/2 miles. It is possible to fight off a trained dog, but it requires killing or severly disabling the animal. You do not have a higher pain tolerance than these animals. I think your ego is doing most of the talking for you, and you should check it at the door when talking to someone who actually works with these animals. I doubt you've ever fought any dog and i'm sure that your experience with these types of animals consist of exchanging whoppers with your friends who own a pitbull or a presa canario. It's the same type of ego thinking I get from guys who claim they're immune to pepperspray (despite never having been sprayed) and can fight through the effects of an M26 Taser (despite never having been shocked). It means nothing. It's more likely you think you can do these things, and you're exchanging untested layman theory for real world experience. That's fine, just don't share it with other people like it actually happened. It's apparent you know very little about dog behavior and temperment. This is proven by the lack of any depth of understanding about the dogs, other than what you've heard and what they look like. Finally, this whole discussion is just deterioting in to one big fish story after another. As far as the 6 hour fight in the early 1900's, i've heard the same story, and you might want to be a little more critical of these types of stories. People have a tendency to exaggerate these things or flat out lie. Again, ego is a funny thing, and it has no real place in a practical discussion. As far as gamebred dogs, i'll give you that they are extremely powerful and have injured and killed a lot of people. What's worse is that many gamebred dog owners are idiots and are motivated by shear ego to have a big tough dog that they are unqualified to own and don't have the slightest idea how to train. They allow their monsters to roam the streets and those who usually suffer the bites of these type dogs are children. Pitbulls are responsible for more deaths annually than any other breed. It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals (and I don't mean they were abused, I mean the owners didn't know how to train them, so they let them run free). The best way to fight this type of dog is with a shotgun. I know, i've shot more of these dogs than any other breed. So, yes, gamebred dogs are dangerous, a fact I haven't disputed, having dealt with many myself. What makes pitbulls and other dogs of this nature particularly dangerous is their thick frontal skulls which can actually deflect some pistol rounds. As I said, it's more important for people concerned about these types of dogs to understand dog behavior, than discussing specific martial arts strategies to attack them. An understanding of dog behavior can someone avoid being bitten. Teaching their children about dog behavior.

 

[Bod]

SgtMac: It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals.

Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?

 

[MA-Caver]

SgtMac: It comes from the poor breeding and ignorance of some owners of these type of animals.

Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?

I don't read he's saying anything like that. I've seen enough of poor breeding and ignorant owners myself (see post #36 in this thread) to support SgtMac's statement. While it wasn't a poor breeding (never seen the dog's papers) it was a prime example of ignorant ownership and training.
Owning a dog is a right and a responsibility just like having a child. A friend of mine that once worked with rehabilitating wolves back into the wild, told me that (domestic) dogs are perpetual puppies or immature. Wolves have to work at getting their foods. This comes from cooperative pack effort and a wolf that doesn't help out in bringing down the prey of the day don't eat and is likely to be killed by the alpha male or run out of the pack to fend for it's own.
Domestic dogs are literally hand fed from puppyhood to the end of their days, thus they don't mature in the same (mentality?) as their wild counterparts, including jackals, hyenas and so forth.
You can teach a dog practically anything ( within reason okay?) and while it still may rely upon instinct to find/forage for food should it be without human companion(s), it will have the mentality of a child/puppy. The ignorant owner will take advantage of this and train the dog to be as mean or as sweet as he/she wants the dog to be without realizing the dog's full potential.
Professional trainers and K-9 officers (civilian and military) will have the intelligence to utilize the dogs breeding, instinct and intelligence to his/her advantage. They will put the dog to work, but the dog is still "hand-fed". All it's sustance comes from it's (perceived) Alpha Male/Female, water, food, affection and attention/training.
A person's class or station in life does not allow them anymore privaledges to own a dog than one lower than they are. Money will usually determine the type/breed and linage of the type of dog the prospective owner gets. How they train the dog is their responsibility. Even if they're wealthy enough to afford a professional trainer. A less "well-to-do" owner will train the dog themselves the best way they know how.

 

[Simon Curran]

I have to be honest, Im not sure why the average layman would even feel it was necessary to be able to fight a dog, but as has been stated before, (and this is just my personal opinion by the way) anyone who is going to try and fight a police dog or such like better have a gun, a police dog handler I once spoke to told me that their animals are tought to attack, not to restrain...

 

[sgtmac_46]

Are you saying that only the aristocracy should own certain types of dog? Does the owner have to be a duke, earl or such like? Is this why the Queen of England owns corgis?

You misunderstand me. What I mean by poor breeding, isn't some aristocratic term. Dog breeders and handlers understand that many dog characteristics, aggression, hip disorders, deafness, sharpness, timidity, and a host of behavior problems are generally inherited. What I mean by poor breeding is the idea that just because my neighbor and I both have pitbulls, it's a good idea to breed them together simply because they are both pitbulls. This, despite the fact that my dog may be a fear biter and my neighbors dog may be crazy. When we get done, we'll probably have puppies that have inherited one or both of those traits. These dogs will probably grow up to be nightmares that we can't handle. That's why good breeders (not the junkyard/backyard variety) spend so much time testing the temperment of their dogs, and don't breed any dog that exhibits traits that are undesireable. Contrary to popular opinion, a great deal of dog behavior is the result of genetics, not upbringing. That's why there are so many dogs that snap at small children that are said to have "been abused". Some of them may have been abused, but the majority are simply the result of poor breeding and bad temperment. My experience with dog breeding and training is primarily with Belgian Malinois and German Shepherds. When I say "Good breeding" for these breeds, I mean dogs who have high drive, solid temperment, and good nerves. Any dog that exhibits poor traits should never be bred as those traits will likely be transmitted to some or all of the that dogs off-spring. That's what I mean by breeding. This isn't to say that many dogs that aren't pure bred aren't very good dogs. I am simply saying that an understanding of good temperment is necessary when looking at a dog. Dogs with poor temperment should never be bred, no matter how pretty or impressive the dog may look.

What I mean by ignorance is someone who buys a "tough dog" breed puppy because their ego is telling them they need a tough dog, but they don't have the slightest idea about how to safely train and deal with this dog as it gets older. I'm sure you've all seen it, this dog gets about a year or so old and the owner doesn't think it's so cute any more, so they log chain it in the back yard. The dog is constantly breaking the chain or otherwise escaping and running with the neighborhood dogs. It gets two years old and it's hormones kick it in to adulthood. Being a large, aggressive dog, it decides to lead the pack it's been running with. It then begins chasing cattle, fighting other dogs and maybe chasing and biting adults and children. In the mean time, the ignorant owner of this dog catches him every once in a while and chains him back up, but never moves to solve the problem and ignores the neighbors request that he do so. Then, one day, a small child gets injured or killed by this dog. Happens more often than you think. This is what I mean by an ignorant owner.

Dog ownership is a responsibility. It's infinitely more of a responsibility if you decide to buy a herding breed dog or a gamebreed dog who is capable of causing death or serious physical injury if they are handled incorrectly. The fact is, it's the untrained "family pet" that is responsible for most of the deaths and injuries caused by dog bites. Truely trained dogs are under the control of their owner and represent very little danger, despite the fact that they may be capable of defending the handler against a threat.

Of course this is somewhat beyond the intent of this forum.

 

[Bod]

My original post should have come with a smiley. It was supposed to be dry humour. The joke didn't quite make it across the Atlantic.

Still, the response was very informative, and I appreciate that. We fear that which we don't understand, and the more information we have the more rationally we can approach our fears.

I've seen people applying human psychology to dogs and it just doesn't work. Dogs are different to primates. Primates are chiefly vegetarian. We don't hunt to the extent that dogs do, and our social setup and the roles we play are different to those of dogs, mostly because of this reason.

The only way for humans to coexist with dogs (and any other species) is to understand them first, on their terms. A snarling dog is not a sociopathic maniac human in wolf's clothing, it is a snarling dog. We shouldn't let fear tell us otherwise.

 

[MA-Caver]

<snip> Dog ownership is a responsibility. It's infinitely more of a responsibility if you decide to buy a herding breed dog or a gamebreed dog who is capable of causing death or serious physical injury if they are handled incorrectly. The fact is, it's the untrained "family pet" that is responsible for most of the deaths and injuries caused by dog bites. Truely trained dogs are under the control of their owner and represent very little danger, despite the fact that they may be capable of defending the handler against a threat.

I'm sorry Sarge but I'll (personally) just will not go with that one. My long experience with dogs has taught me to never-ever trust any one of them... period. I don't care if it is the sweetest little thing on God's green earth. When handling any dog, even if it's a lovable, sweet, lick-ya-ta-death kinda animal... I always place my hands in a position where I can thrust the animal away from me quickly or grab ahold of it to restrain it. I'll hug 'em and I'll love 'em because I do love dogs, but I'll always have that wee bit of readiness at a moments notice. This varies with the breed of course but my own deep sense of distrust is still there regardless.
Now true that dogs can sense fear, aggression and negative feelings. I try not to project these best as I can. Again it depends upon the animal and what it's been trained (or not trained) to do.
No, I've never been mauled by these animals but I have been attacked by them. However; this does not give rise to my caution. It's just ... well, I don't trust them.
My point, and this is for my own opinion, is that any (adult) animal capable of inflicting bodily harm upon me will not ever be trusted completely. This goes for cute widdle kitties too.
Trained or not, loyal-fight/defend to the death family friend kinda dog ... I won't trust them, utterly and completely. :idunno: ...but then... that's just me.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'm sorry Sarge but I'll (personally) just will not go with that one. My long experience with dogs has taught me to never-ever trust any one of them... period. I don't care if it is the sweetest little thing on God's green earth. When handling any dog, even if it's a lovable, sweet, lick-ya-ta-death kinda animal... I always place my hands in a position where I can thrust the animal away from me quickly or grab ahold of it to restrain it. I'll hug 'em and I'll love 'em because I do love dogs, but I'll always have that wee bit of readiness at a moments notice. This varies with the breed of course but my own deep sense of distrust is still there regardless.
Now true that dogs can sense fear, aggression and negative feelings. I try not to project these best as I can. Again it depends upon the animal and what it's been trained (or not trained) to do.
No, I've never been mauled by these animals but I have been attacked by them. However; this does not give rise to my caution. It's just ... well, I don't trust them.
My point, and this is for my own opinion, is that any (adult) animal capable of inflicting bodily harm upon me will not ever be trusted completely. This goes for cute widdle kitties too.
Trained or not, loyal-fight/defend to the death family friend kinda dog ... I won't trust them, utterly and completely. :idunno: ...but then... that's just me.

You miss the point. A trained dog with a responsible owner won't be around you. It's the untrained dog that some idiot lets run wild that's the problem. I don't let strangers pet, snuggle, kiss or otherwise interact with my dogs. I only let acquantances do so in a controlled environment with me present. I know what my dogs are capable of, so I control every aspect of their lives. It's the "Untrained" family pet that bites people. My dogs don't bite people at random because I don't allow them too. I'm the alpha and I decide who gets bit, not my dogs.

 

[sgtmac_46]

My original post should have come with a smiley. It was supposed to be dry humour. The joke didn't quite make it across the Atlantic.

Still, the response was very informative, and I appreciate that. We fear that which we don't understand, and the more information we have the more rationally we can approach our fears.

I've seen people applying human psychology to dogs and it just doesn't work. Dogs are different to primates. Primates are chiefly vegetarian. We don't hunt to the extent that dogs do, and our social setup and the roles we play are different to those of dogs, mostly because of this reason.

The only way for humans to coexist with dogs (and any other species) is to understand them first, on their terms. A snarling dog is not a sociopathic maniac human in wolf's clothing, it is a snarling dog. We shouldn't let fear tell us otherwise.

Yes, in order to understand dogs we must first understand one of the most important aspect of a dogs life. Pack order and pack drive. Where the dog fits in the pack is an over-riding concern among every dog. Some dogs are content to be the bottom of the pack. Others spend much of their time trying to climb the pack. A snarling dog is a dog that feels distressed and threatened by a situation. Confident dogs who are confident with a situation do not snarl, raise their hackles or act like a caged animal. My dogs do not snarl, and wouldn't even if they were about to bite you. Understanding how a dog carries it's tail, it's posture, how it's body is bladed as it approches you, how high it hold's it's tail, are all important clues to the dogs intent and confidence level. Barking is a territorial trait, this is why many stray dogs don't bark, because they don't have a territory to defend. Growling is a warning. Not all dogs growl before they attack, however. A wagging tail, contrary to popular opinion, does not mean the dog is happy to see you, it means the dog is excited. This may be because the dog is happy to see you, or in the case of my dogs, it may be because they are excited that they might get to bite the guy in the bite suit. It's important to understand this distinction. Understanding dog behavior is much more useful than understanding how to roundhouse kick a dog in the head. You can avoid many problems with dogs simply by understanding how they speak to each other. It isn't verbal, it's physical. When we say that a dog can "Sense fear", they don't have a psychic ability to sense you fear and they don't smell it. They see it in your posture, how you blade your body to them, and how you carry yourself. Confident dogs walk straight up to other dogs, head held high. It's a sign of submission in the dog world to blade your body away from a dog, and many dogs with dominance issues will decide you are an easy mark if you act timid around it. Many of you with experience with dogs can tell story about dogs who decided they didn't like a certain person. Many times the dog simply had a person who was intimidated by it, and the dog decided to improve it's pack order by "punking" that person out. Running from a dog creates prey drive, which is the dogs naturally tendency to chase objects that flee from it. This will cause a somewhat timid dog, to chase and bite you from behind, emboldened by the new view of you as a prey item. Standing your ground will often deter some dogs. If a dog advances slowly, you can reteat by slowly moving backwards away from the dog, never turning your back to the dog. Make yourself look bigger, don't blade your body away from the dog. Yell very loudly at the dog in a very harsh voice. Throw a rock at him. If he comes close hit a stick. Most dogs won't fight a human being who appears to be willing to put up a fight. (I did say most)

 

[MA-Caver]

Yes, in order to understand dogs we must first understand one of the most important aspect of a dogs life. Pack order and pack drive. Where the dog fits in the pack is an over-riding concern among every dog. Some dogs are content to be the bottom of the pack. Others spend much of their time trying to climb the pack. A snarling dog is a dog that feels distressed and threatened by a situation. Confident dogs who are confident with a situation do not snarl, raise their hackles or act like a caged animal. My dogs do not snarl, and wouldn't even if they were about to bite you. Understanding how a dog carries it's tail, it's posture, how it's body is bladed as it approches you, how high it hold's it's tail, are all important clues to the dogs intent and confidence level. Barking is a territorial trait, this is why many stray dogs don't bark, because they don't have a territory to defend. Growling is a warning. Not all dogs growl before they attack, however. A wagging tail, contrary to popular opinion, does not mean the dog is happy to see you, it means the dog is excited. This may be because the dog is happy to see you, or in the case of my dogs, it may be because they are excited that they might get to bite the guy in the bite suit. It's important to understand this distinction. Understanding dog behavior is much more useful than understanding how to roundhouse kick a dog in the head. You can avoid many problems with dogs simply by understanding how they speak to each other. It isn't verbal, it's physical. When we say that a dog can "Sense fear", they don't have a psychic ability to sense you fear and they don't smell it. They see it in your posture, how you blade your body to them, and how you carry yourself. Confident dogs walk straight up to other dogs, head held high. It's a sign of submission in the dog world to blade your body away from a dog, and many dogs with dominance issues will decide you are an easy mark if you act timid around it. Many of you with experience with dogs can tell story about dogs who decided they didn't like a certain person. Many times the dog simply had a person who was intimidated by it, and the dog decided to improve it's pack order by "punking" that person out. Running from a dog creates prey drive, which is the dogs naturally tendency to chase objects that flee from it. This will cause a somewhat timid dog, to chase and bite you from behind, emboldened by the new view of you as a prey item. Standing your ground will often deter some dogs. If a dog advances slowly, you can reteat by slowly moving backwards away from the dog, never turning your back to the dog. Make yourself look bigger, don't blade your body away from the dog. Yell very loudly at the dog in a very harsh voice. Throw a rock at him. If he comes close hit a stick. Most dogs won't fight a human being who appears to be willing to put up a fight. (I did say most)

Yes all very good points and good things to know when confronted by a (seemingly) vicous dog. I've found one good thing that helps (sometimes ) and that is to yell "NO!" to the dog. I've had dogs run up to me snarling and (looking like they're) ready to bite and I turn on them and point and yell in that commanding tone "NO!" I've seen them stop and look confused because they've been conditioned to respond to that tone. Now not all will do that because they've been conditioned to respond to that tone from their owners (Alpha male/female leader). But this can work and is definitely worth a try as a first response.
I think that is what people mean when a dog "senses fear" is via body posture but also we humans have the dullest noses on the planet. When we are afraid we emit phermones and other bodily odor clues that signify our fear (or other emotions). Dogs being one of the most keenest noses on the planet (i.e. a bloodhound can smell something like 1 part per 10 million or some crazy number like that ) have noses that will pick up on the scent we unknowingly and instinctively, uncontrollably put out. So yeah a dog will and can smell fear. That's why sometimes when some folks are intimidated by even a small dog the little one won't back away because it is picking that up.
Sargent Mac made some very good points and offers some good tips.
Know your enemy is a vital defense tactic, Sun Tzu taught that, and we as Martial Artists should live and breathe that, among other things.
All in all I still won't give a dog the unconditional trust that I've known many people to have. Even a well trained dog can go against it's conditioning, it's happened.

 

[MA-Caver]

Hey Sarge! Is this the sign in front of your house?? :lol:

 

[Kamaria Annina]

Well, I suppose I've had my share of dogs. I would personally never hurt a dog, no matter whether it was trying to rip off my head or not. I don't see the need for it in the family I've been raised in. I've grown up with rottweilers, and mine is quite heavier than I am, and he has tried to be the 'alpha' dog in the house, by jumping, attacting, etc. Most he has ever gotten off of me was a small scratch with his claw.

However, I don't agree with giving a dog something else to bite at. If a dog is going to bite you, their instinct is on you, not anything else. And most likely it'll be at the throat. (Believe me I've been their as a kid ) If anything, cover your face, AND your throat. And DO NOT run, dog's chase after people who run.

 

[LARS]

Woof, Woof
Surviving a Dog Attack


As a result of a vicious dog attack here in Victoria not to long ago, I decided to do some research on what I could share with my students should they be confronted with a dog attack. Although there was lots of information on the Internet about this topic (some urban myth), I decided to personally speak with three experts in the field; Sgt Jim Simpson (an ex K-9 handler with our department), and his wife Erin who is a professional civilian K-9 trainer (including protection work) with many many years of experience, as well as one of our animal control officers here in the city, and this is what they had to share with me, combined with some information that I found on the Internet, which they confirmed as desirable:

1) Although when faced with a threatening dog our first instinct is to run, this is something that we do not want to do, why????? , Because it will cause the dog’s prey drive to kick in thus further inviting an attack.

2) Do not talk to the dog in a way that will reveal your own anxiety or stress/fear ( i.e nice doggie, it’s okay, that’s a nice puppy) this will often add fuel to the fire. Instead, remain very calm; appear confident or better yet intimidating. Do not provoke, but present yourself as a force not to mess with. If the dog challenges, challenge back. If the dog continues to move towards you, move at him aggressively shouting “no”, “sit”, “down”, “go home”. All commands that most dogs have heard and that may work to your advantage. By moving towards the dog you are far better prepared for an attack than if your were running away.

3) If the dog does not move forward, move away from a threatening dog, walk backwards for an extended distance, and then turn and walk in the direction that you were intending, constantly checking over your shoulder to ensure the dog is not following.

4) If you can grab an improvised weapon such as a stick, use it like a spear rather than swinging it like a bat, due to the fact that many dogs will be able to evade an arcing swing. Target the throat and ram it in if possible. Also some dogs will retreat if you bend down as if picking us a stone and going through all the motions of throwing it at the dog……or actually do wing one at him.

5) If you have time to remove a jacket or sweater don’t wrap it around your arm, but keep it in your hands to throw over the dogs head and face as they attack. Another option for a jacket was to unzip it, open the jacket out with both hands, (making yourself look much much bigger) and again move aggressively towards the dog thus becoming the attacker.

6) If the dog latches on, use a weapon such as EDC knife (cutting across throat) or strike the dog across the bridge of the nose, but if you can’t do either, really work your thumb and fingers around the dog’s throat and squeeze, you can cut of their air supply and cause them real stress

7) Most, but not all, dogs that are showing aggression, especially if hackles are up, are actually much weaker than they appear and will back down if abruptly challenged. If the dog is a genuinely strong dog, which will not be “scared” off, then one must ENGAGE in the fight. Stop thinking about escaping and think about overpowering taking on the attitude that if someone’s going down, it WILL be the dog.


A part of my research for the above posting was to actually quarry for a police dog (100 plus pounds of goal oriented teeth and muscle);

· Several times wearing a full bite suit,
· Several times wearing just a bite sleeve, and
· Several times the handler placed a special type of muzzle on the dog where it could not bite me, but still allowed the dog the ability to attack (me not wearing any bite suit)

Even though I was protected from the dog via a bite suit or bite sleeve, Survival Stress Reaction and most of its effects to the body clicked in upon the dog being sent in to attack, but like any other reality based training, the more familiar I got with how the dog would attack, the better I was able to manage SSR to some degree. Some of the things I empirically experienced:

· When a dog that size hits, it hits like a freight train and unless you have a good foot base, you will likely be knocked to the ground. Thus another reason not to run away from an attacking dog
· When the dog takes hold, it will shake and tug violently not unlike a shark (this is one reason why I now call police dogs land sharks)
· If running away, the dog will usually go after the legs and or buttocks, but if facing the dog it will usually take the closest arm. Again another reason to not run away, and if facing the dog, to keep your strong side back thus protecting your strongest attributes/tools
· Going after the eyes was challenging at best to do, due to the violent shaking and tugging actions that the dog WILL make. I found it easier (but still very challenging) to after the eyes if the dog took an arm, but if it took a leg , hitting the top of the nasal bone was the only viable target
· If the dog broke hold, it would immediately re-engage the closest target it could sink its teeth into until the handler gave the command to out.


After speaking to the experts, I learned that most dogs are not goal oriented and attacked trained, and it is because of this fact that the recommendations in my first posting will “likely” work on most breeds of dogs. To emphasize the points of being aggressive and looking bigger, our ERT team leader has shared with me that there has been a number of calls that they have attended where there was supposed to be a “vicious” trained attack dog (including Pit Bulls), but upon entry, just making lots of noise and being very aggressive was enough to send all these dogs (up to this point in time) to high tail it out of Dodge with their tail tucked between their hind legs.

If, however, you are faced with a professionally trained protection dog that is goal oriented, they will engage with rage no matter how much noise you make, or how intimidating or big you make yourself look. In fact, these types of dogs are specifically trained to ignore these factors through operant conditioning. Thank God these types of dogs are few and far between. Most dogs will attack from a fear base rather than a confident base thus the reason for my original posting.


Darren


Ps: some of the B******** being passed of as defences against an attacking dog that I found on the Internet are pure fantasy (ie wrap your legs around the dog and squeeze). This became even more apparent after having a “real” dog chew on you like a milk bone. Food for thought, excuse the pun !!!!!!

 

[MA-Caver]

Darren, thank you for that. Those are most excellent points and tips. Not really too much to add.
I have experienced myself with "for-real" attacks and was (LUCKY) enough to manage the animal in a way not to get bitten. One was a motivated German Shepard and yes I DID wrap my legs around the animal and squeezed... all the while smacking the b*stard on the nose with one hand and holding it's neck/throat with another.
The dog fought back, hard and I then realized that he was trying to get away. Let him go and he took off yip-ing pretty loud. Either it was him getting his ribcage crushed or my smacking his nose as hard as I could or both but it changed his mind.
Another attack I recall was this long-haired yellowish dog (attack at night) that charged after I passed the walk way to the house, I was on the sidewalk and he still felt I was intruding on his territory. Chased me into the street he did but by then my knife was out and cocked back ready to stab. I was yelling NO to him as well which got him to hesitate. Again (LUCKY ME) the owner heard me shouting at the dog and came out and called the animal off. He and I exchanged (hot) words and I won out because a cop showed up. Since he saw me in the street (my knife was descreetly hidden) and the owner holding off a barking dog...

Being attacked by a snarling fast moving animal is scary (I'll even admit to that) and those TEETH give the impression of a great deal of damage should they connect to skin... YOUR skin. Being (mentally) prepared and knowing (subconciously) what to do on top of MA training (this is a MA forum is it not?) will help out.
And remember it's just a dog.

 

[Floating Egg]

Anyone have any experiences with the Fila Brasileiro?

 

[MA-Caver]

Anyone have any experiences with the Fila Brasileiro?

AKA Brazilian Mastiff ... uhh nope and don't want to either... except to play catch! That's a pretty stout looking dog for sure.

 

[AC_Pilot]

A little story..

First let me say that I'm a dog lover and have two beautiful well-trained Rottweilers. I have owned Rotties for 20 years. The following incident happened to a friend of mine recently.. he lives in a rural home and has chickens.. they started to vanish a few at a time and something was eating them. One evening he heard commotions and grabbed his 12 GA shotgun loaded with 00 magnum buckshot and went out there. That's a load of 15 .33 caliber lead pellets. He found a Harlequin Great Dane breaking down the chicken wire to get at the chickens. H had 3 left to show you what the situation was like (he started out with 15) well I would have found another way to deal with it (being conversant in Canine) but my buddy has little dog experience, a small boy and not too aggressive wife and so he took aim and hit the Dane broadside with that magnum load. The Dane rolled once and got up ready for action.. he fired two more times to put it down. Few humans would have survived the first round. So if any of you folks think a large aggressive dog is an easy kill think again. It's better to learn about dog behavior so as to ward off or avoid encounters in the first place. I personally have faced off numerous aggressive dogs such as Rottweilers and they do read body language. A good staff or stout walking stick can adjust their intent if you use it to warn them. Most dogs will not attack a confident adult human unless they are guard trained or abused. There are a few breeds I do not trust such as the pit Bull, however, they were specifically bred to fight to the death in pits for "sport".