Debate on the existence of Chi

[Bob Hubbard]

The articles I've found describe the basics of their experiments in simple terms. They cite the appropriate scientific journals, which you are free to look up, have translated, then explained to you by your on-staff egghead. These are not some kids webpages, but published journals in the scientific community.

(1) LASER RAMAN OBSERVATION ON TAP WATER, SALINE, GLUCOSE AND MEDEMYCINE SOLUTIONS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG.
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 567-571, 1988)

(2) OBSERVATIONS OF THE EFFECT OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE ULTRAVIOLET ABSORPTION OF NUCLEIC ACIDS
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 647-649, 1988.

(3) THE EFFECT OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE LIPOSOME PHASE BEHAVIOR
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 572-573, 1988)

(6) THE EXTERNAL QI EXPERIMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES TO BEIJING (CHINA) BY YAN XIN
(This paper was published in Zhonghua Qigong (China Qigong) in Chinese, Vol. 1, pp. 4-6, 1993)

etc.

I'm sorry, would it be better if I found a complete paper and gave you that? Would you understand it? It's at a higher than 7th grade level, using some rather big words. (Hell, I don't know what half the summaries mean, word wise. Whats Laser Ramen? That like chicken or Beef Ramen? lol)

Seriously, I've taken the time to find what you claim didn't exist: Scientific Research that Proves it. The fact that CNN or TIME didn't run a story is irrelevant. Maybe they did, but you just missed that bit.

Here is 1 summary complete:
(5) THE INFLUENCE OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE RADIOACTIVE DECAY RATE OF 241Am
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 809-812, 1988)

Conclusions: The decay rate of a radioactive source is usually extremely stable and cannot be altered even by such physical or chemical processes as high temperature, high pressure, high electromagnetic field, strong acid, or strong base. However the Qigong experiments showed that the count rate of 241Am radioactive decay significantly changed while the radioactive 241Am source was being treated by the external Qi of Qigong emitted by Yan Xin. The amplitude of the changes was, on average, about 1% of the total count rate, but in one instance, it reached a maximum of 10%.

The Qigong experiments were conducted at ambient temperature and pressure, and the external Qi was emitted from a distance of 100 meters to 1900 kilometers. Since no known physical or chemical processes existed in these experiments that could cause a change in the decay rate of a radioactive source, except the effect of external Qi emitted from long distances, researchers could only attribute the significant changes in the 241Am decay rate of a radioactive source to the effect of Yan Xin's remote Qi treatment.

What additional data would you like, and can you understand?

A list of his publications is here: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/DrYan_Pub.htm

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-I never said everything had to be proven scientifically. I even stated that science can't prove god exists. And nobody attempted to prove we couldn't go to the moon. That would be trying to prove a negative.

Oh man.....there are people alive today, who insist the moon landings were done in a tv studio, who are quite vocal about it as well. And, no, befoer you ask, I am unable to name any scientists, papers, etc. Use Google if you want that information. I'll stick to my belief in aliens, and guys names "Spock". :rofl:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Oh man.....there are people alive today, who insist the moon landings were done in a tv studio, who are quite vocal about it as well. And, no, befoer you ask, I am unable to name any scientists, papers, etc. Use Google if you want that information. I'll stick to my belief in aliens, and guys names "Spock". :rofl:

ok. I found you a paper, all 164 pages worth, with all that egghead gobbldy gook in it.

A summary of 1 small part (there is alot more in it)
"In a 1991 Chien & al. report that they found the following biochemical effects when
studying the influence of a qigong master, generating Psi-field, on a culture of human
fibroblasts: a 1.8% increase in cell growth rate in 24 hrs; 10-15% increase in DNA
synthesis and 3-5% increase in cell protein synthesis in a 2 h period.
When the master emitted ”inhibiting” intention and corresponding VRM, the cell
growth decreased by 6%, while DNA and protein synthesis decreased by 20-23%,
respectively 35-48%."

Here is the link: http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/ful.../pdf&identifier=oai:arXiv.org:physics/0103031
Enjoy.

 

[RoninPimp]

The articles I've found describe the basics of their experiments in simple terms. They cite the appropriate scientific journals, which you are free to look up, have translated, then explained to you by your on-staff egghead. These are not some kids webpages, but published journals in the scientific community.

(1) LASER RAMAN OBSERVATION ON TAP WATER, SALINE, GLUCOSE AND MEDEMYCINE SOLUTIONS UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG.
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 567-571, 1988)

(2) OBSERVATIONS OF THE EFFECT OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE ULTRAVIOLET ABSORPTION OF NUCLEIC ACIDS
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 647-649, 1988.

(3) THE EFFECT OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE LIPOSOME PHASE BEHAVIOR
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 572-573, 1988)

(6) THE EXTERNAL QI EXPERIMENTS FROM THE UNITED STATES TO BEIJING (CHINA) BY YAN XIN
(This paper was published in Zhonghua Qigong (China Qigong) in Chinese, Vol. 1, pp. 4-6, 1993)

etc.

I'm sorry, would it be better if I found a complete paper and gave you that? Would you understand it? It's at a higher than 7th grade level, using some rather big words. (Hell, I don't know what half the summaries mean, word wise. Whats Laser Ramen? That like chicken or Beef Ramen? lol)

Seriously, I've taken the time to find what you claim didn't exist: Scientific Research that Proves it. The fact that CNN or TIME didn't run a story is irrelevant. Maybe they did, but you just missed that bit.

Here is 1 summary complete:
(5) THE INFLUENCE OF THE EXTERNAL QI OF QIGONG ON THE RADIOACTIVE DECAY RATE OF 241Am
(This paper was published in Ziran Zazhi (Nature Journal) in Chinese, Vol. 11, pp. 809-812, 1988)

Conclusions: The decay rate of a radioactive source is usually extremely stable and cannot be altered even by such physical or chemical processes as high temperature, high pressure, high electromagnetic field, strong acid, or strong base. However the Qigong experiments showed that the count rate of 241Am radioactive decay significantly changed while the radioactive 241Am source was being treated by the external Qi of Qigong emitted by Yan Xin. The amplitude of the changes was, on average, about 1% of the total count rate, but in one instance, it reached a maximum of 10%.

The Qigong experiments were conducted at ambient temperature and pressure, and the external Qi was emitted from a distance of 100 meters to 1900 kilometers. Since no known physical or chemical processes existed in these experiments that could cause a change in the decay rate of a radioactive source, except the effect of external Qi emitted from long distances, researchers could only attribute the significant changes in the 241Am decay rate of a radioactive source to the effect of Yan Xin's remote Qi treatment.

What additional data would you like, and can you understand?

A list of his publications is here: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/DrYan_Pub.htm

-None of that provides any of the data that led then to their "conclusions" or "summraries". The big words are thrown in there to throw people off that can't grasp that they are providing ZERO data. I don't know what tto tell if you can't see that.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What part of "Summary" are you choosing to ignore?
The paper is referenced so that you can look up the data yourself.
These papers are cited by others (as I said, use the Google Ronin.) (You have to imagine a old ghostly jedi voice here, otherwise it loses it's effect)
Details of the experiment are cited.

These papers are -huge-, 100+ pages, with all those charts, diagrams, references, and a small amount of 'who is who'. See the 1 I did find an english link to (different person, but cites Dr. Yan Xin's work.)

 

[RoninPimp]

ok. I found you a paper, all 164 pages worth, with all that egghead gobbldy gook in it.

A summary of 1 small part (there is alot more in it)
"In a 1991 Chien & al. report that they found the following biochemical effects when
studying the influence of a qigong master, generating Psi-field, on a culture of human
fibroblasts: a 1.8% increase in cell growth rate in 24 hrs; 10-15% increase in DNA
synthesis and 3-5% increase in cell protein synthesis in a 2 h period.
When the master emitted ”inhibiting” intention and corresponding VRM, the cell
growth decreased by 6%, while DNA and protein synthesis decreased by 20-23%,
respectively 35-48%."

Here is the link: http://www.citebase.org/cgi-bin/fulltext?format=application/pdf&identifier=oai:arXiv.orghysics/0103031
Enjoy.

-I did NOT read all that. Neither did you. The termonology and math are way over my head. Do you understand anything you're linking? Scroll down to page 136 of that paper..."We put foward a conjecture". All of that and in the end its CONJECTURE.

 

[RoninPimp]

What part of "Summary" are you choosing to ignore?
The paper is referenced so that you can look up the data yourself.
These papers are cited by others (as I said, use the Google Ronin.) (You have to imagine a old ghostly jedi voice here, otherwise it loses it's effect)
Details of the experiment are cited.

These papers are -huge-, 100+ pages, with all those charts, diagrams, references, and a small amount of 'who is who'. See the 1 I did find an english link to (different person, but cites Dr. Yan Xin's work.)

-No data has been presented by you. Chi remains unprove scientifically.

 

[DavidCC]

1900 kilometers?! wow

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-I did NOT read all that. Neither did you. The termonology and math are way over my head. Do you understand anything you're linking? Scroll down to page 136 of that paper..."We put foward a conjecture". All of that and in the end its CONJECTURE.

So you are admitting that any data presented on this matter is over your head.
Fine, it's over mine too.
So we have to rely on the summaries and conclusions.
Which I have repeatedly posted and referenced, yet you dismiss.

You dismiss the proof because you cannot understand it, yet you call for proof. If you seek an advanced scientific paper, written at the 7th grade level, you will be waiting a long time. I doubt they exist.

You stated that there had been no scientific research into it.
You were presented with scientific research.
You stated that it was not done properly.
You were presented with evidence to the contrary.
You stated there was no proof.
Proof has been provided.

Each step of the way, your argument has been dismantled.
It is not my job to educate you so that you can understand it.

The concept of Chi is accepted world wide, in over 100 nations, and is used in government approved treatments. Scientists are doing ongoing research into it, and have been able to measure it's effects on various materials. They have published numerous papers in respected journals on these experiments. The details of those experiments, the hard data, etc, are available to anyone who chooses to look up those papers, and read them. They are of course written at the scientific level, not "joe-bagadonuts in the street" level. The average "joe" in the street cannot understand physics, medical biology, or higher mathematics, yet have no problem with accepting them.

You continue to say "No Data has been provided by you."
What data do you want?
My own personal, measurable data from my own research into this?

 

[RoninPimp]

So you are admitting that any data presented on this matter is over your head.
Fine, it's over mine too.
So we have to rely on the summaries and conclusions.
Which I have repeatedly posted and referenced, yet you dismiss.

You dismiss the proof because you cannot understand it, yet you call for proof. If you seek an advanced scientific paper, written at the 7th grade level, you will be waiting a long time. I doubt they exist.

You stated that there had been no scientific research into it.
You were presented with scientific research.
You stated that it was not done properly.
You were presented with evidence to the contrary.
You stated there was no proof.
Proof has been provided.

Each step of the way, your argument has been dismantled.
It is not my job to educate you so that you can understand it.

The concept of Chi is accepted world wide, in over 100 nations, and is used in government approved treatments. Scientists are doing ongoing research into it, and have been able to measure it's effects on various materials. They have published numerous papers in respected journals on these experiments. The details of those experiments, the hard data, etc, are available to anyone who chooses to look up those papers, and read them. They are of course written at the scientific level, not "joe-bagadonuts in the street" level. The average "joe" in the street cannot understand physics, medical biology, or higher mathematics, yet have no problem with accepting them.

You continue to say "No Data has been provided by you."
What data do you want?
My own personal, measurable data from my own research into this?

-I did NOT state there has been no research into it. You have NOT provided "numerous papers in respected journals". You have provided links that argue their point with zero data and a long winded paper that in the end only provides CONJECTURE on the subject. You have NOT dismantled my argument. My argument remains as valid as it was on the first page of this thread. Chi has NOT been proved by scientific means. You believe in chi. That's fine, but it is NOT based on any scientific evidence of chi.

 

[terryl965]

-I never said everything had to be proven scientifically. I even stated that science can't prove god exists. And nobody attempted to prove we couldn't go to the moon. That would be trying to prove a negative.

Sir you are saying chi needs to be proven scientifically, to be real allI'm saying is why when we have not proven everything else by science. And yes sir back when we talked about going to the moon some said that woul;d never happen for it was impossible to prove it at that time and then years later we was there. Science is a great tool for some but blind faith and trail and error is the biggest part of science, if not for ideals or imagination or blind faith the world would be left to ruins.

Your obvious lack in vision on this subject is only subject to your lack of faith in life or it seems to be( it please do not get this confused with religion) we are talking life in general. I believe there is a higher power than myself and no not GOD although he is, I'm talking about that sense you get when you are able to accomplished something that everybody says was impossible, day javue, that feeling everything is going to be alright but do not know how there is energy in everything around us and some can draw that energy at will others only in the right moment do I believe in Chi or Ki power who knows do I don't that it exsist no it is there just like you and me here today.
Terry

 

[RoninPimp]

Sir you are saying chi needs to be proven scientifically, to be real

-No I am NOT. But "blind faith" has NOTHING to do with science.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Long Winded? What do you think real scientific papers look like? A 3 page book report? Again, you only prove that you are incapable of accepting real scientific reports, after numerous demands for it.
The data is in there. I am sorry that you do not understand it.

It hasn't been proven? Ok, so what if not chi, was it that was effecting the results in those cited experiments?

Other Papers, with all the charts and funny numbers.

The bioenergy analysis of Tai Chi Chuan: a longitudinal case study[SIZE=-1]
CMJ Cheng, HS Tho - Proceedings of the. SD Asia Congress, 2003 - 140.127.119.11
... originating china then researchers have done in-depth studies on important topics
such as the physiological changes during Qigong and Tai Chi Chuan practice ...

[/SIZE]Qigong Practice: A Pathway to Health and Healing[SIZE=-1]
R McCaffrey, NL Fowler - HOLISTIC NURSING PRACTICE, 2003 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
... One component of Qigong is T'ai Chi, an exercise modality that uses gentle
movements. Research has demonstrated that Qigong and ...

[/SIZE]Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology - group of 7 »[SIZE=-1]
X Yan, F Lu, H Jiang, X Wu, W Cao, Z Xia, H Shen, … - Journal of Scientific Exploration, 2002 - accessv.com
Page 1. Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi of Yan
Xin Life Science Technology X IN Y AN Chongqing Institute ...
Summary: "Focusing on Yan Xin Life Science Technology research results in the areas of physical science and technology, we have come to the following conclusions:
The external qi emitted by Dr. Xin Yan has been detected by physical detectors and its physical existence has been confirmed. External qi emitted by Dr. Yan has been found to interact with and affect matter at different levels from molecular to nuclear levels. Specifically, the external qi from Dr. Yan significantly affected the molecular structure of liquid water and other water solution as well as the half-life of radioactive isotope 241 Am."

[/SIZE]External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of … - group of 2 »[SIZE=-1]
X Yan, ZQ Xia, H Shen, A Traynor-Kaplan - BULLETIN OF SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY AND SOCIETY, 2002 - ecpc.ucsd.edu
... External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or ... Certain physical
manifestation and effects of external qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology. ...
"Summary: In summary, these studies indicate that qi emission of YXLST can be detected using biochemical techniques and can modulate enzyme activity in two directions. Furthermore, because the effects are not uniform and apparently entail feedback suggests that the nature of xternal qi of YXLST is analogous to bidirectional transfer of information. The data presented are consistent with the hypothesis that xternal qi of YXLST can alter molecular vents in vitro and thus deserves further study. "


[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Sir you are saying chi needs to be proven scientifically, to be real allI'm saying is why when we have not proven everything else by science. And yes sir back when we talked about going to the moon some said that woul;d never happen for it was impossible to prove it at that time and then years later we was there. Science is a great tool for some but blind faith and trail and error is the biggest part of science, if not for ideals or imagination or blind faith the world would be left to ruins.

Your obvious lack in vision on this subject is only subject to your lack of faith in life or it seems to be( it please do not get this confused with religion) we are talking life in general. I believe there is a higher power than myself and no not GOD although he is, I'm talking about that sense you get when you are able to accomplished something that everybody says was impossible, day javue, that feeling everything is going to be alright but do not know how there is energy in everything around us and some can draw that energy at will others only in the right moment do I believe in Chi or Ki power who knows do I don't that it exsist no it is there just like you and me here today.
Terry

It has been proven through the Scientific Method (principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses). There are over 200 papers on the subject. They just happen to be complex reads.

 

[RoninPimp]

Long Winded? What do you think real scientific papers look like? A 3 page book report? Again, you only prove that you are incapable of accepting real scientific reports, after numerous demands for it.
The data is in there. I am sorry that you do not understand it.

It hasn't been proven? Ok, so what if not chi, was it that was effecting the results in those cited experiments?

Other Papers, with all the charts and funny numbers.

The bioenergy analysis of Tai Chi Chuan: a longitudinal case study[SIZE=-1]
CMJ Cheng, HS Tho - Proceedings of the. SD Asia Congress, 2003 - 140.127.119.11
... originating china then researchers have done in-depth studies on important topics
such as the physiological changes during Qigong and Tai Chi Chuan practice ...

[/SIZE]Qigong Practice: A Pathway to Health and Healing[SIZE=-1]
R McCaffrey, NL Fowler - HOLISTIC NURSING PRACTICE, 2003 - ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
... One component of Qigong is T'ai Chi, an exercise modality that uses gentle
movements. Research has demonstrated that Qigong and ...

[/SIZE]Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology - group of 7 »[SIZE=-1]
X Yan, F Lu, H Jiang, X Wu, W Cao, Z Xia, H Shen, … - Journal of Scientific Exploration, 2002 - accessv.com
Page 1. Certain Physical Manifestation and Effects of External Qi of Yan
Xin Life Science Technology X IN Y AN Chongqing Institute ...
Summary: "Focusing on Yan Xin Life Science Technology research results in the areas of physical science and technology, we have come to the following conclusions:
The external qi emitted by Dr. Xin Yan has been detected by physical detectors and its physical existence has been confirmed. External qi emitted by Dr. Yan has been found to interact with and affect matter at different levels from molecular to nuclear levels. Specifically, the external qi from Dr. Yan significantly affected the molecular structure of liquid water and other water solution as well as the half-life of radioactive isotope 241 Am."

[/SIZE]External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or Suppress Enzyme Activity of … - group of 2 »[SIZE=-1]
X Yan, ZQ Xia, H Shen, A Traynor-Kaplan - BULLETIN OF SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY AND SOCIETY, 2002 - ecpc.ucsd.edu
... External Qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology Can Revive or ... Certain physical
manifestation and effects of external qi of Yan Xin Life Science Technology. ...
"Summary: In summary, these studies indicate that qi emission of YXLST can be detected using biochemical techniques and can modulate enzyme activity in two directions. Furthermore, because the effects are not uniform and apparently entail feedback suggests that the nature of xternal qi of YXLST is analogous to bidirectional transfer of information. The data presented are consistent with the hypothesis that xternal qi of YXLST can alter molecular vents in vitro and thus deserves further study. "


[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]

-Unlike you I will actually read those studies and post when I get a chance.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I did read them. The last 2 in detail. I do not pretend to understand the math or many of the particulars.

 

[RoninPimp]

I wasted some time reading those "studies". They are crap. It's more pseudo science babble. Maybe that's why you can't understand them. They prove nothing. I am content in the fact that chi is still unproven in a scientific manner.

I am done with this thread. I will not post on it any more. And unlike you, I mean that.

Some reading for you. Scientists reviewing what is and is not known about chi.

Main Qi search page: http://www.csicop.org/cgi-bin/search/search.cgi?q=qi

Recommended: http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-09/qigong.html

Also recommended: http://www.csicop.org/si/9509/chi.html

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, anything you can't understand is crap. Ok. Bout what I figured.
Be content in your ignorance.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, you reference articles written by a writer. Um, where is all the data you keep demanding? The ones I provided had data. Yours is a collection of stuff from other writers it seems.

No matter. I'll stick to stuff done by real researchers, who have papers published in respectable journals and subject to peer review and commentary. You stick to stuff written by guys with no scientific background at a "for the average public" level.

 

[crushing]

Some reading for you. Scientists reviewing what is and is not known about chi.

From one of the links at csicop.com:

"If a patient is feeling weak and lethargic, then a healer will embark on a course of action that he or she feels will increase the patient's flow of Chi. He will do this according to carefully taught ancient techniques. Treatment options might include changes in diet, a prescribed course of exercises, massage, herbal or other organic medicines, and perhaps techniques like acupuncture [...]"

I'm not sold on the existence of chi, but those 'healers' sound like they may be on to something. Either that, or those healers haven't learned to deal in prozac and ritalin yet.