Debate on the existence of Chi
- Thread starter RoninPimp
- Start date
RoninPimp said:
And, of course, as we all know, Science knows everything.
RoninPimp said:
My reply was not intended to prove that ki exists, merely to comment on your sweeping statement that ki principles are not based on science. Which is not an entirely exact statement because there is plenty about science we don't know nor understand and if that is the case, and Ki principles have been around for thousands of years and still survive today despite skepticism and many, many frauds, the statement that Ki principles are not based on science cannot be an entirely true statement.
- Thread Starter
- #5
From Wikipedia: Science (from Latin scientia - knowledge) refers to the system of acquiring knowledge based on empiricism, experimentation, and methodological naturalism. The term science also refers to the organized body of knowledge humans have gained by such research.
-There is nothing scientific about ki.
-There is nothing scientific about ki.
RoninPimp said:
According to the knowledge we have now, this depends on the scientist and the development of our scientific knowledge.
Along a similar line of your argument would be:
"Everything that can be invented has already been invented." - Mr. Charles Duell, 1899.
- Thread Starter
- #7
-I'm in no way arguing that science will never prove the existance of ki. As I cannot predict the future. I am strictly speaking in scientific knowledge to date. Ki is not based on science.shesulsa said:According to the knowledge we have now, this depends on the scientist and the development of our scientific knowledge.
Along a similar line of your argument would be:
"Everything that can be invented has already been invented." - Mr. Charles Duell, 1899.
Neither is religion, yet many who refuse to believe in 'ki', insist that angels protect them and an invisible man in the sky awaits them. Interestingly enough, in conversations with some very devout individuals, they have described sensations similar to what I accept as ki. Who's right? Dunno. But I think it exists, there are schools of medicine that accept it as real and work with it, etc.RoninPimp said:
Given: Science is flawed.
Given: Chinese Science says it exists, and they have 1,000 years of empirical evidence to support that theory.
Given: Western Science claims it does not exist as it can not be measured or proven.
Given: Science cannot prove that God exists. But people believe in God.
Therefore: Sciences inability to prove or disprove the existence of deity, shows it's shortcomings.
Therefore: Since it cannot prove or disprove the existence of deity, then it is not logical to depend on it as absolute proof or disproof in the existence of ki.
One cannot prove a negative.
Given: Chinese Science says it exists, and they have 1,000 years of empirical evidence to support that theory.
Given: Western Science claims it does not exist as it can not be measured or proven.
Given: Science cannot prove that God exists. But people believe in God.
Therefore: Sciences inability to prove or disprove the existence of deity, shows it's shortcomings.
Therefore: Since it cannot prove or disprove the existence of deity, then it is not logical to depend on it as absolute proof or disproof in the existence of ki.
One cannot prove a negative.
- Thread Starter
- #11
Bob Hubbard said:
You are wrong. "Chinese Science" does NOT have empirical evidence of Chi. You are correct that a negative cannot be proved. That's why I can't prove Chi doesn't exists. You claim it exists. Therefore the burden of proof lays with you.
green meanie
Master Black Belt
RoninPimp said:
And yet... somehow I don't feel burdened...
It's very possible that what people call "ki" is an anachronistic lable for several of the bodies biological functions. For example, you can take a sensative voltmeter and anmeter and measure lower resistence at accupuncture points via Ohm's Law (V=IR). This is bioelectricity and it has been thouroughly tested.
I tested this myself during my undergrad.
I tested this myself during my undergrad.
Here are some sources for your reading pleasure...
http://www.somasp.org.br/referencias/1995.htm
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/hels/neugen4.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw1hqx2gVII
http://www.emofree.com/Research/meridianexistence.htm
http://www.somasp.org.br/referencias/1995.htm
http://users.med.auth.gr/~karanik/english/hels/neugen4.htmlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw1hqx2gVII
http://www.emofree.com/Research/meridianexistence.htm
swiftpete
Blue Belt
Whatever its known as, ki/qi/energy/intention etc, I know there are a lot of arguments over whether it does or doesn't exist. I can say that I know 100% it does, as I've had it demonstrated and felt it many times over the years I've been training. If you haven't experienced it then i can understand scepticism, I was sceptical too and thought it could be fake. But all you need to do is feel it to know that it does exist.
I don't see the point of trying to argue over whether it does or doesn't exist though. If you're dead set against believing it, thats your business, but I think its a shame to just close yourself off and dismiss it, for your sake. I'm not saying chi balls and no touch knockouts are necessarily true, I think they've taken it a bit far there with whats possible with chi. But i don't just believe, I know that it is possible to at least influence someones movement without touching them etc, as not only have I seen it done, I've done it myself.
But its everyones own business to believe it or not. If you can experience it in the flesh, non believers minds would be changed straightaway. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it doesn't really bother me too much one way or another whether other people believe or not as I know for myself what is possible.
Anyway to answer the original question, yeah we use it a lot!
I don't see the point of trying to argue over whether it does or doesn't exist though. If you're dead set against believing it, thats your business, but I think its a shame to just close yourself off and dismiss it, for your sake. I'm not saying chi balls and no touch knockouts are necessarily true, I think they've taken it a bit far there with whats possible with chi. But i don't just believe, I know that it is possible to at least influence someones movement without touching them etc, as not only have I seen it done, I've done it myself.
But its everyones own business to believe it or not. If you can experience it in the flesh, non believers minds would be changed straightaway. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, it doesn't really bother me too much one way or another whether other people believe or not as I know for myself what is possible.
Anyway to answer the original question, yeah we use it a lot!
I understand your point regarding personal experience...and I think that personal experience can be powerful. That is why science emphasizes repeatable experiments. However, there is an important element that you are missing. Empiricism.
The ability to measure a thing, defines a thing. Chi/ki is no different. The articles that I posted provide empirical experiments that tested a physical phenomenon that is commonly referred to under the umbrella of chi/ki. These experiments provide support that this phenomenon exists.
Whether you believe in it or not, is irrellevent. These experiments have supported a theory about bioelectricity. Continued skepticism may still be warrented, but at a certain ill-defined point, it becomes rediculous. This is because the amount of evidence is so great and so compelling that it is nearly impossible not see the studied phenomenon as part of the real world.
The bottom line is that people are free to choose to believe in reality or not believe in reality. Their belief, however, has absolutely no effect on whether or not something actually exists, though.
The ability to measure a thing, defines a thing. Chi/ki is no different. The articles that I posted provide empirical experiments that tested a physical phenomenon that is commonly referred to under the umbrella of chi/ki. These experiments provide support that this phenomenon exists.
Whether you believe in it or not, is irrellevent. These experiments have supported a theory about bioelectricity. Continued skepticism may still be warrented, but at a certain ill-defined point, it becomes rediculous. This is because the amount of evidence is so great and so compelling that it is nearly impossible not see the studied phenomenon as part of the real world.
The bottom line is that people are free to choose to believe in reality or not believe in reality. Their belief, however, has absolutely no effect on whether or not something actually exists, though.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
upnorthkyosa said:
Also just about any book by Yang Jwing Ming.
As for testing, I went through this is another post on the same subject.
I will not go through all of that again, but the University of Traditional Chinese Medicine in Beijing is trying to develop something to test Qi/Ki.
One of the professors that is working on this has said that the levels of External Qi someone claims to have is easy to prove or disprove. However the internal type is currently not testable and he feels that although it may or may not exist, most who claim they have high levels of it should not be trusted.
I do think it exists, I have felt it, but I do not believe that science can disprove or prove Qi/Ki by the scientific method at this time.
If it doesn't exist, when would they have over 1,000 years of medical treatments calling for the use, manipulation etc of it?RoninPimp said:
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Sorry, forgot something - Chinese medicine view of Chi. if you have high levels of QI you are healthy. If you have low levels of Qi you are sick. If you have no Qi you are taking a dirt nap.
RoninPimp said:
For centuries, people have been researching ki and acquiring a knowledge of it, and have even done experimentation with it. If fact, the definition of science you provided doesn't not support your statement that there is nothing scientific about ki, it does quite the opposite.
I'm not arguing whether ki does or doesn't exist, but the experiences of people over the years and the search for patterns and processes to describe these experiences sounds like the wikipedia definition of science. Maybe, where we are at with the study of ki now is kind of like where we were with the 'ether' of the 19th century?
