De-buffing the Myth of Richard III

[granfire]

still, start the petition.

 

[granfire]

And Josephine Tey: The Daughter of Time. (1951) Brilliant investigative history disguised as a crime novel.

Vindiction and confirmation for a great writer. see wikipedia.

somebody suggested the book on a different site, regarding ole Richy...

 

[Tez3]

somebody suggested the book on a different site, regarding ole Richy...

I enjoy her books, she was a good writer.

 

[Tez3]

York Council is to petition the Queen to allow him to be buried in York. He had actually arranged his burial..in York. He was married there and crowned there his wife is buried there. There's going to be a fight about this, it's on the main BBC news as well as the regional bulletins.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/9931282.Call_for_King_Richard_III_to_be_buried_in_York/

Petition on here http://www.minsterfm.com/news/local/886024/campaign-for-richard-iii-to-have-york-burial/

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/09/richard-iii-should-be-buried-in-the-north/

http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/features...hard_III__should_we_claim_him_back_for_York_/

 

[Tez3]

 

[granfire]

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/...chard-iiis-face-revealed-after-500-years?lite

Kinda creepy, kinda cool, the fellow wasn't half bad looking...
Too bad he was a Plantagenet....

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm curious, did the same vilification of the last ruler of the line happen in other changes in British history like Wessex to Danish back to Wessex to Norman to Plantagenent? Were Edmund Ironside, Hardicanute, Harold II or Empress Matilda vilified or was that just what happened to Richard III and it was possibly more of a Tudor thing?

 

[granfire]

I'm curious, did the same vilification of the last ruler of the line happen in other changes in British history like Wessex to Danish back to Wessex to Norman to Plantagenent? Were Edmund Ironside, Hardicanute, Harold II or Empress Matilda vilified or was that just what happened to Richard III and it was possibly more of a Tudor thing?

I guess they did not have Shakespeare pinned against them....

But poor Harold did not fair well either.

(BTW, I thought Henry VII was married before he got rid of Richard...or was that an after thought...hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, wanna get hitched and be my queen?)

 

[Xue Sheng]

I guess they did not have Shakespeare pinned against them....

But poor Harold did not fair well either.

(BTW, I thought Henry VII was married before he got rid of Richard...or was that an after thought...hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, wanna get hitched and be my queen?)

Richard III died on August 22, 1485 and Henry's reign was from 1485-1509. He married Elizabeth of York, eldest daughter of Edward IV in 1486

 

[granfire]

I went back to check.
The literature I had in mind must not have been clear about it, but they suggested the claim was largely through wifey...I wonder how she took it, but then again, the alternative might have been a swift end...so living in the palace could be the lesser of two evils...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I went back to check.
The literature I had in mind must not have been clear about it, but they suggested the claim was largely through wifey...I wonder how she took it, but then again, the alternative might have been a swift end...so living in the palace could be the lesser of two evils...

This is pure speculation but it could have been more like

hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen

 

[granfire]

This is pure speculation but it could have been more like

hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen

yeah, pretty much the way it could have happened.

Then again, the gals were raised to expect to be bartered off in this fashion....
Hey, I got this daughter, she ain't half ugly looking... I giver her to you and you don't burn my fields, mkay?

 

[Tez3]

I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.

Like I said before..he married Elizabeth of York But I was under the impression that she was the eldest daughter of Edward IV

 

[Tez3]

Like I said before..he married Elizabeth of York But I was under the impression that she was the eldest daughter of Edward IV

She was and the Princes Edward and Richard were his sons and her brothers.

 

[Xue Sheng]

She was and the Princes Edward and Richard were his sons and her brothers.

I just looked this up, I do not want to give the impression that I knew it prior and I do not want to give the impression that I am saying it is true since I have not looked for Corroborating evidence based on a desire for expedience of response and trying to learn something about the History of Great Britain (basically corrections welcome)

Elizabeth of York was declared illegitimate by parliament to clear the way for Richard III to become king

However Edward IV was married to Elizabeth Woodville and they had ten legitimate Children, Elizabeth being one of them. yet Parliament declared all ten illegitimate to clear the way for Richard III. Now this may or may not be true since I do know Tudor England was not kind to the Plantagenet line

Richard III parents were Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York and Cecily Neville, Duchess of York

And Richard Plantagenet (Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York) was the son of Richard, Earl of Cambridge, and Anne Mortimer

Richard of York's eldest son was Edward IV so that would make Richard III the uncle of Elizabeth of York and if Edward had living children when he died, and I would assume his eldest son Edward should have been king but he went to the tower, which does not mean prison, I just wanted to add that because most hear “he went to the tower" and think prison here in the US, or that has been my experience with “The Tower”. Although I have heard it said that the Tower was not a place you wanted to be under Henry VIII or Elizabeth I but that comes later and is another story all together.

So my original statement of "hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen" was wrong (well in reality it is likely wrong either way) and it should have been "hey, Sweety, I killed your uncle, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen"

 

[granfire]

I'm not sure who you think Henry the Seventh married? He married Elizabeth of York, the sister of the two Princes who were supposedly murdered in the Tower, she was also declared illegitimate. Interestingly, despite being declared illegitimate the oldest Prince was named by Richard as the heir presumptive, something the Tudors were disputing, making it a more likely motive for murder by the Tudors than Richard.

hey, cut me slack, I can't remember if I got up this morning... much less what happened 600 years ago!

 

[granfire]

well, the tower was a castle first, royal residence...

BUT...they always had those little chambers in the basement the content of which was often forgotten...not just in the Tower of London...a rather universal thing....monestaries and convents were another place where you didn't want to be against your wishes...

 

[Tez3]

I just looked this up, I do not want to give the impression that I knew it prior and I do not want to give the impression that I am saying it is true since I have not looked for Corroborating evidence based on a desire for expedience of response and trying to learn something about the History of Great Britain (basically corrections welcome)

Elizabeth of York was declared illegitimate by parliament to clear the way for Richard III to become king

However Edward IV was married to Elizabeth Woodville and they had ten legitimate Children, Elizabeth being one of them. yet Parliament declared all ten illegitimate to clear the way for Richard III. Now this may or may not be true since I do know Tudor England was not kind to the Plantagenet line

Richard III parents were Richard Plantagenet, Duke of York and Cecily Neville, Duchess of York

And Richard Plantagenet (Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York) was the son of Richard, Earl of Cambridge, and Anne Mortimer

Richard of York's eldest son was Edward IV so that would make Richard III the uncle of Elizabeth of York and if Edward had living children when he died, and I would assume his eldest son Edward should have been king but he went to the tower, which does not mean prison, I just wanted to add that because most hear “he went to the tower" and think prison here in the US, or that has been my experience with “The Tower”. Although I have heard it said that the Tower was not a place you wanted to be under Henry VIII or Elizabeth I but that comes later and is another story all together.

So my original statement of "hey, Sweety, I killed your brother, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen" was wrong (well in reality it is likely wrong either way) and it should have been "hey, Sweety, I killed your uncle, you and what's left of your family wanna go meet him or do think we should get hitched and can be my queen"

Phew got there in the end! By all contemporay accounts the marriage of Elizabeth and Henry the Seventh was supposed to have actually been a happy one, they had seven living children (more than the heir and spare usually demanded) and when she died he went into deep mourning and spent a fortune on the funeral, he also never remarried when it would have been expedient to, strange but I'm guessing that the Tudors and the Plantagenets were bound together by relationships in common anyway.
Richard the Third's mother Cecily was born just up the road from me at Raby Castle in Durham. One of Elizabeth's sisters married the Duke of Norfolk another family like the Percy's who are still going. it's the premier Dukedom in the country and they are descended form Edward the First, they are also Catholic which causes certain problesm in the aristocracy here and talking of the Catholic Church.....
They have entered the reburial argument now, as Richard had been a Catholic they think it improper for him to be buried in a Church of England Cathedral especially is the service is a Protestant one.

 

[granfire]

HAHAHAAHHA, yeah...dagnabbit, don't you hate it when management changes unexpectedly!
So, can we find a catholic chapel in Yorkshire?
(does it really matter? I mean, if the ghost didn't haunt anybody yet...)