Dan Numbers - do they really matter?

[Moto9000]

Thank you for your reply. That is very interesting. Anyone at the dojang with a dark bluebelt or higher could teach class if the master was not available. Before we were issued a blackbelt we had to earn three white stripes on our dark bluebelts through teaching all the warmups, stretches, techniques and colored belt forms to the class. The majority of students quit before they got a "blackbelt" and a dan # and kukkiwon certification even if they had a dark bluebelt with stripes.

I recently went to a new, local taekwondo school in the US after many years off and was quite surprised at the difference in everything. Their blackbelts start at one stripe instead of no stripes and they have no dan # on their belts. That is apart from the curriculum differences. I have found the Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo curriculum very complete in comparison.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That is apart from the curriculum differences. I have found the Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo curriculum very complete in comparison.

Which MDK TKD curriculum? More than one exists. Depending on when that particular MDK branch split off, they may teach using the Pinan, Palgwae or Taegeuk poomsae.

 

[Moto9000]

I am not sure which branch exactly, though I do know all my gups were issued by the Korea Taekwondo Association.

We learned all the Kicho, Pyung Ahn, Bassai, Naihanji, Ship Soo, Jin Do, Kong San Goon and Ro Hai forms (basically almost everything in Kang Uk Lee's Tang Soo Do book except Chil Sung), plus the Kukkiwon Taegeuks and blackbelt forms. That is in addition to the sparring--both olympic and 3-point, self-defense, basic hapkido, basic boxing and weapons (nunchuk and staff).

It seems many taekwondo schools teach self-defense, hapkido and weapons as separate classes. Though many of the self-defense moves and setups for many hapkido moves are found in the older forms. And the basic weapons forms are based on the kicho patterns.

Almost forgot breaking as well.

 

[Moto9000]

Just trying to learn more as I didn't know taekwondo/tang soo do/moo duk kwan was taught any other way except when you're training for sanctioned Olympic sparring events with the new kick style where the knee always chambers like a front kick or step to fool the opponent on which angle you're attacking from.

I want to get back into martial arts seriously again with a trained moo duk kwan taekwondo master and earn my kukkiwon 4th dan after going to the local taekwondo school for six months and seeing the "competition" style poomsae forms. At first I seriously thought they were messing with me but after doing a lot of research over the past couple of weeks I realized I need to find a legitimate master if I want to continue any moo duk kwan taekwondo studies.

 

[Buka]

Just wanted to say, welcome to MartialTalk, Mont. Hope you enjoy it.

 

[Moto9000]

Thank you!

 

[JP3]

So, how much do these matter? Does your organization use them? Why or why not?

Dan numbers. I think my ATA and WTF certificates have numbers on them, but all they mean is an identity thing, issued as the certificates go out I think.

In my current association, certificates aren't numbered. Dated of course, but no numbers. There is some "cool" factor to "who" it was that signed this one or that one. A buddy, older instructor of mine's shodan certificate was signed by Kenji TOmiki himself, which I think way neat. I admit, I got a bit fame-glazed about that one, starry-eyed in admiration, the old *(&$^%.

 

[Moto9000]

I wasn't aware the WTF could issue certificates actually. Do you have information on this? Is it through the USAT?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Dan numbers. I think my ATA and WTF certificates have numbers on them, but all they mean is an identity thing, issued as the certificates go out I think.

The WTF doesn't issue certificates.

I wasn't aware the WTF could issue certificates actually. Do you have information on this? Is it through the USAT?

Your awareness is correct. JP3 is incorrect.

 

[Moto9000]

I thought as much. I wonder who issued the Pope his 10th dan recently through the WTF lol.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I thought as much. I wonder who issued the Pope his 10th dan recently through the WTF lol.

Honorary ranks don't count...

 

[Bruce7]

Numbers are a funny thing, I see them everywhere. In my first TKD dojang, I was #478B, my TSD number is 15726 in my previous org, now S-7003. I have various ohter numbers in TKD, HKD, KKW, etc certs.

I enjoy riding motorcycles. I have a Vulcan (1600 Nomad) and belong to the Vulcan Riders and Owners Club (VROC), where I am #880, in other clubs like Southern Cruisers I have a nuber #120051, in the GCVROC #20, Rolling Blunder #116, KawaNOW #673, Dark Side #273, among others and even have a "Wet Butt Riders Association" #.

Everyone likes their numbers. Generally, the lower the number, the more experienced you are and other members know that. It can give you some credibility that you know what you're talking about.

Again, the above is not always true. Sometimes you don't always join an organization as a novice, but after you already had many years of experience in training (or riding). For instance, I didn't receive my TSD Dan bon till after I was already 4th dan, but did pretty much get my VROC number soon after buying my first Vulcan. So sometime it tells a story, sometimes not.

I ride a 650 Vstrom Adventure, I like those kind of numbers.

 

[Bruce7]

Honorary ranks don't count...

I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.
If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?

 

[pdg]

I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.
If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?

There's a recent BB at our school who is older than you...

And whether it's only kkw BB that counts is pretty dependant on whether you're affiliated with them at all.

There is more than one tkd, and some predate the founding of the kkw entirely.

 

[kitkatninja]

...So, how much do these matter? Does your organization use them? Why or why not?

Yes, for recordkeeping...

These dan numbers cannot be universal across all MDK/TSD/SBD groups are they? Meaning if you are a newly minted dan today well after the MDK split, your # if you are given one will mean nothing to HC Hwang's group. Correct?

I very much doubt that it is universal, there are so many different group - national, international, independant, umbrella, etc... For instance, my "number" is made up of our association number and my Dan number... Which is used within the Union that we're a member of. If I moved associations, I am pretty sure that I would be issued a new number provided I meet that associations requirements...

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.

We have a student who earned her 1st Dan after age 70.

If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts

That is totally and completely wrong. Kukkiwon ranks are what counts if you're at a Kukkiwon school. TSD ranks count if you're at a TSD school. MDK ranks matter if you're at a MDK school.

and others are only honorary.

Any organization can give honorary awards. I can assure you that my non-Kukkiwon ranks are not in the least honorary.

Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?

Kukkiwon schools use Kukkiwon. Others use whatever organization they're affiliated with.

 

[dvcochran]

I have never had a black belt, and am probably too old to earn one, but I find this discussion very interesting.
If I understand this right the Kukkiwon Black Belts are what that counts and others are only honorary.
Which organizations use Kukkiwon which do not?

Any black belt that is truly earned through time and effort counts. Period. Don't get overly sold on the background stuff. It is what YOU do that counts toward the accomplishment.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, for recordkeeping...



I very much doubt that it is universal, there are so many different group - national, international, independant, umbrella, etc... For instance, my "number" is made up of our association number and my Dan number... Which is used within the Union that we're a member of. If I moved associations, I am pretty sure that I would be issued a new number provided I meet that associations requirements...

Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?

 

[pdg]

Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?

Not in the UK they're not.

Also, Europe is not one country under one government, please do not assume this is the case.

 

[kitkatninja]

Interesting, the way you worded your comment it sounds as if the European government is involved in your local MA somewhat the way the Korean government is. Is this accurate?

No, our association is a member of the WDSDU. It's based in Korea, but it has members in alot of different countries

Also, Europe is not one country under one government, please do not assume this is the case.

That's correct, Europe is a continent (just like North America includes the USA and Canada). The EU is the European Union, where each member country has representatives in order to create standards as well as promote peace, freedom, security, justice, etc... Anyway, while there are national (within the UK, which by the way is a union as well) and international (within the EU and world-wide) associations, organisations and union's; the martial arts are basically unregulated as a sport and or activity, it's basically the individual National Governing Bodies (NGBs) "regulates" them - there are however certain laws and acts that we have to follow, eg health & safety act, Child Protection Act 2004, Criminal Justice and immigration Act 2008 (section 76) in relation to self-defence, etc...