Cross-training Aikido and another art

[Swordlady]

If you go to the root of most martial arts they all started for the same reason and that was to survive on the battlefield. Not sure I understand how you make better people when you are showing them ways to subdue, throw, maim, break and kill? I think you would teach them meditation, philosphy, reading, writing, etc...

Four months into my Aikido training, I'd say it's teaching me self-control. You have to be cognizant of your uke at all times to make sure you're *not* hurting him/her. Although it is VERY easy to dislocate a shoulder or break an arm in this art, we haven't had any serious physical injuries at the dojo yet. *knocks on wood* That says something about the level of care we take to protect each other on the mat, and it translates into a general calmness amongst the Aikidoka.

 

[Aikironin]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html

good start to read, before we go on re: cross training
Secondly don't confuse Self defense with Martial arts
Thirdly surviving a confrontation is not the same as winning one.

Surviving on the battlefield is not how the gendai arts came forth, Is Aikido a battlefield art? Not really, Is Daito Ryu a battlefield art, not really.

and where is maiming and killing part of Aikido curriculum?

Self Defense may be why people join the Martial Arts, but it isn't why they stay.

"How does it belittle their way that I choose to find my own?"
It doesn't
unless you presume that your way is in fact superior to thiers, which you aren't. My original statement referred to the American mentality of taking some of X and some of Y, and thereby thinking one has all the 'bases covered'.

"I choose to test and compare" in what sorts of situations? can one make an accurate comparison? Is wrist lock X better than wrist lock Y? There are only so many ways to twist a joint. So how does say Kotegaeshi in Aikido any different than the Kote gaeshi in bujinkan? Physically they are the same, principally they are not, this is what tends to delineate the arts, the prinicpals expressed in the movements of said art. Is the ridgehand to the throat in Hapkido, different than iriminage in aikido? They sure as hell are. Osensei went through great lengths to raise the Japanese spirit after WWII. His tool was Aikido. Did it have some self defense applications, sure. can I use a screwdriver to pound in a nail. I sure can. Read the histories, read the bios of these individuals. This is what is lacking in a lot of martial artists they don't see their individual art being influenced by what was happening all around them. The societal, political changes that had immense influence on Post Meiji Japan, especially WWII. Note that Juken techniques quickly disappeared from Aikido after Japan's defeat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the hows and whys.
I await the Zapruder film analysis of this

 

[Aikironin]

Also I highly recommend Donn F. Draegers 3 volume set on Classical Bujutsu, Classical Budo, and Modern Budo. Get them, Read them. Especially if you practice Japanese Arts.

 

[tempus]

I will have to come back with a quote I think I saw in a book. With that being said a lot of the Aikido moves look very similar to sword slashes, which would have come from the battlefield.

I can eailsy maim someone in Aikido or kill them. Arm bars, leg sweeps, shoulder throws, etc.. Strike to the knee or groin to loose up an oppoent before doing a wrist lock. Would continue, but be called by wife to watch the second half of 'Bones' that we Tivo'd.

 

[Hand Sword]

The use of other styles is helpful mainly because Aikido rarely trains in how to attack correctly. While O'Sensei himself emphasized the importance of Atemi, most aikido dojo's seem to rarely practice it, or if they do, it is done in the form of stylised formal attacks.
Since the type of force and movement in these strikes is far different from what a person would encounter in a modern day self defence situation, it means that it is very difficult to adapt Aikido to deal with it genuine attacks.
To my mind for an art such as Aikido which focuses on the re-direction of force, it is absolutely neccessary that a person understands the proper mechanics of creating force in the first place.
After all, its very difficult to defend against an attack if you don't understand how that attack works right?

Most styles do this. The practitoner will face attacks, for real, that are not in most dojos. Even you MMA guys won't face the same on the street, that you do in training. However, Just like the other styles, Aikido can be trained to deall with real attacks. Just like other styles, it's only slight adjustments that need to be made. There is no more difficulty for them than any other style.

 

[Aikironin]

With that being said a lot of the Aikido moves look very similar to sword slashes, which would have come from the battlefield.

I can eailsy maim someone in Aikido or kill them./quote]


I agree a lot of movements in Aikido you could easily Maim or kill someone, but then again, it really wouldnt be "aikido" any more, would it? Nor very likely an attitude taken by a Buddhist (which Osensei was definitely not). there is much research regarding the Sword and Jo in Aikido, and remember AikiJo and AikiKen are there to teach one Aiki Principles not Swordsmanship, let alone Koryu Swordsmanship. Stan Pranin has done much research on this "osensei as master of mulitple art myth" and I would direct anyone to www.aikidojournal.com for further reading.

In aikido terminology we do use the phrase 'cut' instead of 'throw'. So I do agree that the moves are very similiar to sword slashes, that although does not show that ergo it came from the battlefield. For example, Takeda Sokaku practiced Ono ha Itto ryu swordsmanship, yet there is little of that ryu in DTR, and some have even argued his style was somewhat unorthodox as he used one handed techniques with the sword. As this (DTR) was the main art of Aikido history, Ono ha would ergo seem to have more influence but it doesn't. Our stance is supposedly taken from Yagyu Shinkage ryu, and Osensei briefly studied Kashima Shinto ryu, at the Kobukan, I believe K. Ueshiba did more of this. Again check Mr. Pranins research. Now Saito's Aikiken re: Kumitachi's are strikingly similiar to Katori shinto ryu. Check out Aikinews 2nd Friendship seminar for this.

Also look at how Kata is viewed in the Koryu world. It isn't so much a study of technique but a study of Human relationships in conflict. Aikido still tries to maintain this view in its training. And you still here it in the way we express our teachings. "keep relaxed, feel for tension, maintain center, don't become fixed on the wrist/grab/attack" Again I would refer interested readers onto Diane Skoss's books on the Koryu.

This is not intended as a criticism of anyone's views of MA for self defense, merely that using Traditional Martial arts for self defense is probably one of the more narrower focus' of Martial arts applications. Since essentially they all teach you not to fight.

 

[tempus]

In my view if I maim or kill someone with Aikdio to me it is still Aikido. One of the graces of Aikido is I can control the level of damage I do to an attacker. I think our opinions are based on our training or Aikido. I am preparing for my brown belt test in Nihon Goshin Aikido. The finial test is me standing in the middle of the dojo. There is a line of 12 to 20 studends of various ranks. One by one they will attack (based on card that tells them what attack to do) and I will defend. A panel of black belts will grade me on my defense. The Uke's will be throwing punches, kicks, grabs, chokes, swinging sticks, slashing\stabbing with training knives, putting training guns to my head\back\sides, and when I get through that they will then do multiple attacker scenarios. When it is all done I would have gone thru about 125 to 135 attackers in an hour or so.

Now we do these smaller attack lines in class and you attack the student with the force of their belt rank. My rank or higher I will be swinging to take your head off and if you are lower ranked I will swing nice easy so you can practice the blend and the technique in a controlled manner. Of course sometimes we do the entire line slow for every rank for better feeling of techniques and practice.

So you can see where I am getting the maiming and killing from. Espeically in multiple attcker situations or when a weapon is involved. Of course my first plan is to make a break for it, but if trapped I have to train to survive the situation.

 

[Aikironin]

Well first of all, Nihon Goshin Aikido is not Aikido per se, Japanese self Defense Aikido is not the art Ueshiba Morihei created, this is by no means to imply that NGA is an inferior or superior art, merely that it is a different art, with which we are talking about. Secondly, I can tell by your posts you haven't read anything that I have recommended or linked. So that tells me something as well. Good luck on your Brown belt test.

 

[tempus]

I blend, I make circles to throw and inflict pain. All Aikido styles have common threads. Irimi, tenkan, ki, immobilization's, projections, joint-locks etc.. I think the philosphies of the art is what makes them differnce.

Not sure what it tells you, but no I have not read anything you linked yet.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html

good start to read, before we go on re: cross training
Secondly don't confuse Self defense with Martial arts
Thirdly surviving a confrontation is not the same as winning one.

I've read that before, it makes some good arguements. And I do understand the distinction between self-defence and martial arts, I have absolutely NO quarrel with people who do martial arts for the culture, fun etc.
I figure fun is really one of the most important reasons to be doing it.
And I agree with difference between survival and winning. I have little interest in winning, my basic approach mostly consists of dropping the attacker and running very fast. I just like having a fall-back if thats not an option.

Self Defense may be why people join the Martial Arts, but it isn't why they stay.

Agreed. I train because I enjoy it. Its just self-defence and all its aspects(situational awareness, verbal de-escalation etc) happens to be one of the areas I enjoy most.

"How does it belittle their way that I choose to find my own?"
It doesn't
unless you presume that your way is in fact superior to thiers, which you aren't. My original statement referred to the American mentality of taking some of X and some of Y, and thereby thinking one has all the 'bases covered'.

Not sure its even possible to deal with everything that could happen. Does that mean I should practice air-raid drills mid-sparring?
I just like having a solid enough base for dealing with the more likely problems. That mostly consists of knowing how to avoid trouble and talk people down though.

"I choose to test and compare" in what sorts of situations? can one make an accurate comparison? Is wrist lock X better than wrist lock Y? There are only so many ways to twist a joint. So how does say Kotegaeshi in Aikido any different than the Kote gaeshi in bujinkan? Physically they are the same, principally they are not, this is what tends to delineate the arts, the prinicpals expressed in the movements of said art. Is the ridgehand to the throat in Hapkido, different than iriminage in aikido? They sure as hell are. Osensei went through great lengths to raise the Japanese spirit after WWII. His tool was Aikido. Did it have some self defense applications, sure. can I use a screwdriver to pound in a nail. I sure can. Read the histories, read the bios of these individuals. This is what is lacking in a lot of martial artists they don't see their individual art being influenced by what was happening all around them. The societal, political changes that had immense influence on Post Meiji Japan, especially WWII. Note that Juken techniques quickly disappeared from Aikido after Japan's defeat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the hows and whys.
I await the Zapruder film analysis of this

As I said, I choose to follow my own principles on this, so rather than what principles the art focuses on, Im more interested in seeing in how it works physically. It means I may never be a good example of their way, but at least I can plod along merrily on my own

Whats the details on the Zapruder film? I do find the way culture influences the style to be interesting, and especially with regards Kano and the creation of Judo.

 

[Aikironin]

The Zapruder film is the only existing photographic evidence of JFK's Assassination. By stating that:
"I choose to follow my own principles on this, so rather than what principles the art focuses on, Im more interested in seeing in how it works physically"

Nothing wrong with this, but the statment could imply that you 'know' better. And it indicates that you aren't really following the 'do' method as much as the 'jutsu' method again, not a criticism as much as an observation. also the principles one follows...hmmm are the principles you followed at 15 yrs old. the same as the ones you follow at 25,35 or 45?

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

The Zapruder film is the only existing photographic evidence of JFK's Assassination. By stating that:
"I choose to follow my own principles on this, so rather than what principles the art focuses on, Im more interested in seeing in how it works physically"

Hehe I should have known that one. "Back and to the left"

Nothing wrong with this, but the statment could imply that you 'know' better. And it indicates that you aren't really following the 'do' method as much as the 'jutsu' method again, not a criticism as much as an observation. also the principles one follows...hmmm are the principles you followed at 15 yrs old. the same as the ones you follow at 25,35 or 45?

I suppose you could sai I know better for me. Im not saying my way works better than theirs, just that it works better for me.
And there is a "do" that governs all this. Its the same principles that Ive followed all my life so far, and ones which will probably stay fairly constant.
Adapt and create. Adapt and change, to best deal with life and the circumstances and world around me. And then try to create and improve those circumstances and world.
Makes me happy anyway

 

[Aikironin]

Fair enough

 

[Hand Sword]

...hmmm are the principles you followed at 15 yrs old. the same as the ones you follow at 25,35 or 45?

I seem to run into those people constantly on the job!

Then, In comparison, It seems that the teenagers I deal with are way more mature!

 

[Mike Hamer]

I've found that my Aikido helps me at Instinctive Response Training, where we cover a wide variety of material, in terms of balance and the ability to relax in motion.

 

[Tony]

I have done some Wing chun and found it helped me relax more, making my punches faster in my other kung fu style. Because my kung fu class has ended now I have to look for another martial art to try so I thought about Aikido. I have already started a Jeet Kune Do class so we will see what happens. I read some where that Steven Seagal did some Karate as well as being trained in Wing chun because she has some very fast hands!

 

[undeadcheese]

I trained in aikido before I trained in karate. I find that the awareness of my body and of theirs allows me to train far more safely than I would otherwise be able to. The aikido also allows me to become much more comfortable with being close to an opponent.