Cross Discipline Grappling Rule Set - Is this a thing?

[NewKenpoDude40]

Hello,

I don't have a lot of grappling in my background and this is something I've been wondering about for a bit so I figured I would ask this question here. I've seen some of the "Judo BB (or some other grappling system) vs Jiu BJJ BB" types of videos, and I've found that usually, it turns out that the person representing something OTHER than BJJ also practices BJJ.

This led to me wondering: Is there some sort of shared grappling ruleset that would allow for some parity in high-level grappling contest between grapplers from different systems without one contestant having to go by the rules of the other contestant?

Thanks

 

[Simfers]

I think one of the big issues with such a system is that some rules are going to be incompatible with each other. For example, judo allows very limited time on the ground and an instant victory for throws that meet certain criteria, but BJJ has no time limit on the ground and no such instant victory for takedowns/throws. There's no way to create parity, someone would have to change the rules by which they play.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Take your opponent down and then take off is the opposite of dragging your opponent down and then play your ground game.

 

[skribs]

Hello,

I don't have a lot of grappling in my background and this is something I've been wondering about for a bit so I figured I would ask this question here. I've seen some of the "Judo BB (or some other grappling system) vs Jiu BJJ BB" types of videos, and I've found that usually, it turns out that the person representing something OTHER than BJJ also practices BJJ.

This led to me wondering: Is there some sort of shared grappling ruleset that would allow for some parity in high-level grappling contest between grapplers from different systems without one contestant having to go by the rules of the other contestant?

Thanks

There really isn't, because each of the grappling arts is built around different winning conditions.

Judo is built heavily around the stand-up game and the throws. You're not allowed to grab the legs. You're not allowed to spend much time on the ground.

Wrestling is built around take-downs and heavy pressure. You're not allowed to choke or do submissions.

BJJ is focused on submissions. Pins are worth points, not the match, where pins are worth the match in wrestling and Judo. No-Gi BJJ and submission wrestling are basically the same thing.

I think what you would need to do in order to create parity is to have some system set up with a different win condition, in which all of these arts are equally unprepared for it.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think what you would need to do in order to create parity is to have some system set up with a different win condition, in which all of these arts are equally unprepared for it.

That sounds like the start of just making another sport/art, that will have people specialize in it, and require you to do the same thing again for new parity.

 

[drop bear]

Submission wrestling.

Catch wrestling possibly.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Submission wrestling.

Catch wrestling possibly.

These but also "judo doesn't allow a lot of time on the ground" is not true in any of the traditional schools, you will spend plenty of time on the ground going for arm locks and chokes.

I think people sometimes confuse modern Olympic judo the sport, with judo the martial art, and aside from a few small details, BJJ is just judo. One thing I don't buy into is some idea that Brazil revolutionized martial arts, all they did was spread Judo and spend more time on newaza.

 

[Sammy Naur]

I think one of the big issues with such a system is that some rules are going to be incompatible with each other. For example, judo allows very limited time on the ground and an instant victory for throws that meet certain criteria, but BJJ has no time limit on the ground and no such instant victory for takedowns/throws. There's no way to create parity, someone would have to change the rules by which they play.

But you're describing Olympic and some forms of tournament judo. Not the actual Judo curriculum.

Go to Kodokan or Kosen schools and those people will dominate on the ground just during training.

This "BJJ does it better on the ground" is largely Gracie propaganda. Let's not forget Helio himself was rag dolled on the ground when he decided to roll with Kimura.

 

[Sammy Naur]

There really isn't, because each of the grappling arts is built around different winning conditions.

Judo is built heavily around the stand-up game and the throws. You're not allowed to grab the legs. You're not allowed to spend much time on the ground.

Again, this is just not true. This is more of a tournament ruleset thing, as opposed to judo training.

"Built around the stand up game", no, judo contains a wide variety of ground techniques, and in a good judo school you will spend a lot of time going from standing to groundwork.

I have been choked out on the ground many times in judo.

 

[marvin8]

Judo is built heavily around the stand-up game and the throws. You're not allowed to grab the legs.

Shintaro Higashi
Oct 21, 2024

After a 14-year absence, certain prestigious tournaments, including the All Japan Open Championship, are experimenting with reintroducing leg grabs. Shintaro and Peter discuss this groundbreaking rule change, potential IJF adoption, and what this means for judo practitioners globally. They also explore how this rule change might attract more wrestlers and Brazilian jiu-jitsu athletes to Judo especially in the U.S., and Shintaro offers insights on how to integrate leg grabs into training. The conversation touches on the future of judo in the U.S., particularly in the lead-up to the LA 2028 Olympics.

00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:45 Leg Grabs Returning in Competitions
00:03:20 Compromise on Leg Grab Rules
00:06:30 Effects on Judo Spectatorship
00:10:39 Impact on American Judo and Wrestlers
00:13:52 Integrating Leg Grabs into Training
00:21:42 The Future of Judo and Competition
00:24:33 The American Judo Style

 

[Simfers]

But you're describing Olympic and some forms of tournament judo. Not the actual Judo curriculum.

Go to Kodokan or Kosen schools and those people will dominate on the ground just during training.

This "BJJ does it better on the ground" is largely Gracie propaganda. Let's not forget Helio himself was rag dolled on the ground when he decided to roll with Kimura.

All right, those are fair points and I'll confess to ignorance on the matter. Thank you for the education.

 

[Sammy Naur]

All right, those are fair points and I'll confess to ignorance on the matter. Thank you for the education.

I'll give you some examples from my own Kodokan experience.

A typical training night would be warmups a lot of which focused on ground strength ("Japanese" pushups, sit ups, various crawls). This is to get you comfortable being close to or on the ground.

Then sensei would show usually but one sub or ground technique per night and one throw, and we would spend a solid half hour just starting on our knees and rolling to attempt the new ground technique (say a collar choke, side control etc) after that we would drill the throw (but not continue on the ground) to get the mechanics down. Pick a partner, back and forth 30 times etc.

Going through the full standing-throw-ground fight in training is actually kind of hard and risky, you don't want to throw or sweep someone and then just land on them, most people will get stunned just landing, which is why the standup part of judo usually goes through the throw but also safely landing yourself and pausing (usually either in control, or letting uke go tumbling, so they can practice their ukemi/safety falling).

So in a way the Kodokan/Kosen schools focus on ground wrestling and submission as a special focus, like BJJ. But combining the whole sequence from standing to ground sub is taught in order until even kids can do it. This was really Kano Jigoro's goal all along, a start to finish martial art. Here's a good example of a typical Kodoka shiai. Kids that are good at judo are cool to watch because many older adults don't have this sort of skill or flexibility left and also tend to be moodier (time in judo = pain later on if you're not careful about recovery). To be young again.

 

[frank raud]

But you're describing Olympic and some forms of tournament judo. Not the actual Judo curriculum.

Go to Kodokan or Kosen schools and those people will dominate on the ground just during training.

This "BJJ does it better on the ground" is largely Gracie propaganda. Let's not forget Helio himself was rag dolled on the ground when he decided to roll with Kimura.

The discussion is not in the curriculum of judo, or other grappling styles, but the rulrset they compete under. So, yes, the IJF rules are completely relevant, not what happens during training in the club. Kosen works with a different ruleset and focus than Kodokan Judo, same as BJJ, Sambo or freestyle wrestling.

 

[Sammy Naur]

The discussion is not in the curriculum of judo, or other grappling styles, but the rulrset they compete under. So, yes, the IJF rules are completely relevant, not what happens during training in the club. Kosen works with a different ruleset and focus than Kodokan Judo, same as BJJ, Sambo or freestyle wrestling.

So "compete," can mean internally and external.

A few people mentioned that judoka don't focus on groundwork. That's not true, newaza is very much a focus in good Judo schools just as it is in BJJ. My point was that BJJ doesn't "own" groundwork grappling, choking, submissions, etc.

Training in a good club there is always competition, constantly. That was always the old Judo way, and the whole ranking system in a good judo place is usually based on internal competition. BJJ is the same, obviously. People get stripes or new belts not for "time in rank" but also improvement, regardless of waza.

Joining up to a public tournament sure there is a ruleset to consider, often for safety reasons. The goal of those is to win medals, not have sensei notice your skill improvement.

I was awarded one belt just for avoiding a black belts constant choking attempts. That was probably one of the most intense experiences of my life. He was so good, the more I resisted the harder he got. We called it a draw after about 5m, and I got my next kyu.