Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed

[lklawson]

But then he trips over cracking his head leaving me time to escape.

Come to me with something concrete and you will get something concrete.

Seriously?

 

[lklawson]

Still going to hurt though. Which may be the path OP wants to take.

Like giving someone a slap to send them a message.

Did you really just advocate slap fighting as a viable method of self defense? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[drop bear]

I think in part you guys are dealing with a difference in legal systems. In the US, if you use something that can potentially be lethal in some reasonable way, it's often viewed as a lethal weapon, as I understand it.

It's marketing. Every bad guy wants to kill you but every bad guy can also be stopped with just 3 easy moves.

It is pretty standard.

 

[drop bear]

Seriously?

Yes seriously.

The ,what I would do in a knife fight, is fun and all but hardly based in reality. And if you were being serious then you need more insight on the topic.

 

[drop bear]

Did you really just advocate slap fighting as a viable method of self defense? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.

I have no idea what that means.

Nope. They do exactly the amount of damage I want.

Like any other tool or technique, effectiveness varies. If it's not effective, you probably did it wrong. I am quite confident that if I want to use a knife to make you stop attacking me right now, I can. Or I can shoot you. That works too.

Good taste. Ultratech is top notch. I have one. I recommend checking out the ”pacific” by Chris Reeve. It is my favorite fixed blade for overall utility.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.

You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?

97,183 people were killed with knives worldwide in 2017 accounting for around 22% of homicides. Nearly 40% of homicides in Europe were committed using a knife that year. Clearly, some people are using them effectively. It is worth noting that Homicide rates in the Americas were 31 per 100,000 as opposed to 9 per100,000 globally, with Australia coming in at 0.8 per 100,000. This may account for some differences of opinion in this particular part of this particular discussion.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.

It's a marketing ploy. Not real.

See post #67

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That isn't a military medical report.

I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.

True, no guarantees. I have friend who was shot 7 times with 7.62x39mm with 3 to the thorax, 3 to the right arm and one in left hip. He survived after his buddy helped him walk 120 yards to get to a helicopter. I have another friend who was stabbed 11 times by 3 assailants. There was a significant size difference, however, the much larger victim survived after just washout and sutures, the three assailants were all hospitalized with serious injuries including broken bones. Sometimes the bad guy really does want to kill you, sometimes that happens more often depending on your global location.

 

[drop bear]

True, no guarantees. I have friend who was shot 7 times with 7.62x39mm with 3 to the thorax, 3 to the right arm and one in left hip. He survived after his buddy helped him walk 120 yards to get to a helicopter. I have another friend who was stabbed 11 times by 3 assailants. There was a significant size difference, however, the much larger victim survived after just washout and sutures, the three assailants were all hospitalized with serious injuries including broken bones. Sometimes the bad guy really does want to kill you, sometimes that happens more often depending on your global location.

My theory is if I belt someone in the head. They will possibly be much more likely to stop for a second. Then I run away.

Even with a light bat or a whip.

I mean there is no reason I couldn't carry a knife as well. And stab them if I got all stabby minded.

Or even both and utilise a spadi daga style set up.

Like ogers self defence has layers.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My theory is if I belt someone in the head. They will possibly be much more likely to stop for a second. Then I run away.

Even with a light bat or a whip.

I mean there is no reason I couldn't carry a knife as well. And stab them if I got all stabby minded.

Or even both and utilise a spadi daga style set up.

Like ogers self defence has layers.

I agree, best martial art is running away. Layer #1.

 

[drop bear]

I agree, best martial art is running away. Layer #1.

The concept OP seems to be going for is more of a whip than a heavy baton. And they get used a bit differently for different effects.

So if we think defensive whip. We can start to get an idea of what OP possibly wants to achieve with his lightweight batting.

I mean if I slash at you with a hiking pole. It is going to create a barrier which you will be loathe to enter.

So looking at defensive whips. They really were considered self defence items.

Here is the biker. Or get back whip.

I know a chillian friend of mine and they used to carry a hose(apparently they have really crappy thin rubber hoses over there) fill it with sand and belt people with that. Indian police were using canes to belt people who were not masked at one stage. The gublai gang? Not sure if they went for canes or bats.(a mix and match apparently)

The sambock which is a stiff whip used in Africa.

I mean it is not unheard of as a concept.

Riding crop used in something something.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The concept OP seems to be going for is more of a whip than a heavy baton. And they get used a bit differently for different effects.

So if we think defensive whip. We can start to get an idea of what OP possibly wants to achieve with his lightweight batting.

I mean if I slash at you with a hiking pole. It is going to create a barrier which you will be loathe to enter.

So looking at defensive whips. They really were considered self defence items.

Here is the biker. Or get back whip.

I know a chillian friend of mine and they used to carry a hose(apparently they have really crappy thin rubber hoses over there) fill it with sand and belt people with that. Indian police were using canes to belt people who were not masked at one stage. The gublai gang? Not sure if they went for canes or bats.(a mix and match apparently)

The sambock which is a stiff whip used in Africa.

I mean it is not unheard of as a concept.

Riding crop used in something something.

I have seen a belt used to good effect in a 1 vs 2 which occurred in a grocery store. The user looked to be proficient. I’m mostly a CMA guy though, so what would I know about belts?

 

[drop bear]

I have seen a belt used to good effect in a 1 vs 2 which occurred in a grocery store. The user looked to be proficient. I’m mostly a CMA guy though, so what would I know about belts?

Because sashes?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Because sashes?

Don’t use those either. The old old guys like Lau Bun used to wear the girdle, but my Sifu didn’t.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Because sashes?

We don’t do the gi or flashy uniforms.

 

[Argus]

Buy better quality knives. Spend more than $20 at the hardware store.

Fair point. My teacher had a select few that he recommended that were actually sturdy and had a more robust locking mechanism.

If your carry method drops your carried item, then your carry method sucks. Don't do it that way. If the pockets in your pants don't work, then you need different pants with different pockets.

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. My point was that horizontally cut pockets are great for keeping items from dropping out of your pockets, because they close up if you sit, squat, or in any way lower your center of gravity and bend your knees/legs at the hip. For this reason they're great at being pockets, but are a horrible place to keep any weapon that you intend to be able to access. Either you wear pockets that allow the contents to just dump out, or you wear pockets that seal up the moment you lower your center of gravity, making anything inside very difficult to access. And are you really going to, say, throw out all of your pants except a select few with specifically cut pockets?

So, to me, pocket carry is something to be avoided in general.

No offense but if so, then you need better training. Honestly, humans have been doing this reliably for, literally, a couple of centuries now. I can personally document using folders for fighting as far back as 1827 and almost certainly much earlier (that's just the first one which comes to mind), along with the challenges of deploying folders as opposed to fixed blades. The 1849 Manual Del Baratero has a pretty in-depth discussion of using a folding knife for fighting. I mean, the challenges you're discussing aren't exactly new information and humans have had a really long time to solve them.

No offense, but maybe you need this training. I mean, I don't know you -- maybe you can access a folding knife in your pocket while moving out of the way and parrying an incoming weapon, but... if you speak so lightly of it, I am skeptical. If you watched the video that drop bear posted in which a guy, very well trained, deployed his folding knife under ideal circumstances, standing straight up and facing an inanimate target (a balloon), he drew, deployed it, and stabbed pretty much as efficiently as anyone can expect to do, and it still took about 2.4 seconds, if I recall. I'm sure you can imagine just how many stabs and cuts your opponent can deliver within that time frame.

I'm serious. Try this against someone who is coming at you with repeated thrusts and/or cuts while you try to deploy your knife. It is extremely difficult to deploy a folder from your pocket, even if you've poured many hours of practice into this. Maybe you have, and I've got no doubt that some people are good enough to pull it off -- one of my teachers was. But, he was also someone who I would consider to be one of the top Martial Artists on the planet, and lives and breathes his art.

Anyway, I'll look into the Historical sources you mention. I'm sure pocket design plays a big role into how well this does or doesn't work, and I'm curious if pocket carry Historically was any different -- ie, something like a vest pocket would be far more accessible, I would think.

Everything becomes harder during adrenal stress. Whether your trying to deploy against another knife, a baseball bat, or a mob of ninjas is irrelevant.

My point is to actually try it. Like I said, I put considerable effort into practicing this and, while I won't say it is "not viable ever and for anyone," my conclusion is that most people would be well advised to adopt a different method of carry.

That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying ANY weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.

Umm, I get that...

Look, I know that there's a century-long propaganda campaign against knives for self defense. But, honestly, they're no different from any other weapon. If you use a hammer that can smash a person's head in, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking. If you jam the ferrule of an umbrella into someone's stomach, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking. The tool doesn't matter.

I totally agree. And I don't like the aforementioned propaganda campaign. I'm just being realistic, or perhaps a bit pessimistic here, in that I don't trust that the law will be applied in an entirely objective and logical manner. Propaganda is a powerful force, and while our legal systems are still mostly sound, it's the case that, more and more, people seek political rather than legal outcomes.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. The sum-total of lethal-force attacks from categories not involving firearms, which include hammers, fists, feet, knives, screwdrivers, ball bats, etc., far exceed threats with guns.


Again, that's not actually true. There are a ton of different lethal threats, including the OP's "collapsible baton."

This I'll readily admit -- I didn't have any numbers to back up my perception, so I shouldn't have claimed such.

I have to chuckle a bit at categorizing the OP's ultralight "collapsible baton" as a "lethal threat" though.

Besides, who says you can only carry one thing?

Very fair point. I just don't want people to have false confidence in a method of carry, and a tool, which they don't appreciate the limitations of.

How so?


I'm not sure what you mean. I might agree but I would like a bit more description on what you mean here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Fixed blades and batons are generally carried on or inside the belt, which is much more accessible (even if concealed) than a pocket, in my experience. They're also sturdier, easier to deploy (especially in the case of the fixed blade), and have longer reach (in the case of the baton, at least. The fixed blade potentially as well, but I suppose it depends on local laws). In short, I just see them as simpler, sturdier, more reliable, and more accessible options. A folding knife is more of a utility implement that is typically not designed for, or carried in a manner which lends itself to use as a weapon.

But again, I am speaking in broad, general strokes. You can find any number of specific instances where I'm wrong in regards to this particular knife, mode of carry, or highly trained practitioner, but on the average, I think my points stand (except where I made clearly inaccurate statements, such as the prevalence of gun vs knife encounters. My bad).

 

[drop bear]

Fair point. My teacher had a select few that he recommended that were actually sturdy and had a more robust locking mechanism.

It isn’t really about price by the way. A thousand dollar liner lock is still a liner lock.

You can get a cold steel triad lock in just about every size and shape for not that much money. And they are possibly the most solid lock you can get. (Barring a few specialist knives)


Take for example a cold steel recon. Which i believe are generally pretty cheap.(sorry voyager is the cheaper one)

It holds up really well considering the guy testing it is kind of a mental case.

 

[drop bear]

You're contradicting yourself a bit here. My point was that horizontally cut pockets are great for keeping items from dropping out of your pockets, because they close up if you sit, squat, or in any way lower your center of gravity and bend your knees/legs at the hip. For this reason they're great at being pockets, but are a horrible place to keep any weapon that you intend to be able to access. Either you wear pockets that allow the contents to just dump out, or you wear pockets that seal up the moment you lower your center of gravity, making anything inside very difficult to access. And are you really going to, say, throw out all of your pants except a select few with specifically cut pockets?

We are talking about a knife in a pocket with a pocket clip? Or just jammed all the way in there under your keys or something.

I ride a motorbike for a living and can get to my utility knife from that position reasonably ok.

 

[Dirty Dog]

No offense, but maybe you need this training. I mean, I don't know you --

Maybe you should read some of the books Kirk has written or contributed to... He's a subject-matter expert.