Create your own form

[Mark Lynn]

I attended a tournament today and judged kata for black belts and for under black adults. I saw variations of the TKD patterns that we practice, variations of Japanese kata, and newer forms that might have been made up for competition or maybe they were part of grading I'm not sure because I'm not familiar with the style. There were a variety of different styles and schools represented.

One style's kata had a lot of self defense related techniques in it. What I mean is I could see various take downs, throws, etc. etc. in this softer more flowing form. However it was very complex. The two JKA based (influenced, not sure if they were an official JKA school or not) did hard style Japanese karate kata. The American Karate/TKD participants did high level (high brown/black belt) kata. It was also rounded out with a couple of Isshinryu, and Gojuryu instructors and a Shotokan instructor.

In the younger division the two JKA style (again I don't know if it was "official" JKA) took 1st and 2nd because their kata was powerful and precise. The softer more flowing school I graded down some because the one young lady was executing several high (what looked like axe) kicks and they lacked power. I was confused because I thought they sometimes looked like front kicks sometimes Axe kicks. The young man from the same school seemed to forget (looked confused and hesitated) during his performance. Anyway I spoke to them afterwards because I had graded them lower while the other senior instructors graded them higher I explained why I graded them lower. I asked about the axe kicks and they young lady looked confused and told me they were foot sweeps in the form. She told they changed the kata to make the sweeps higher to be more pleasing to the judges. I had been complimenting them on their kata, I had explained to them I saw the throws and self defense techniques etc. etc. and then told them that for me the high sweeps, which didn't really make sense in the form (as a foot sweep) as demonstrated, and that by changing them it worked against them because they looked like weak axe or unchambered front kicks to me.

The American Karate TKD participants were really more independent, meaning even students doing the same forms from the same school looked very different in hand placement etc. etc. The Isshinryu and Gojuryu instructors took 1st and 2nd in the adult division, the Isshinryu instructor told me the form he did was a green belt form, where I think we do it at 2nd black or higher.

I did notice that I generally ranked the participants lower than the rest of the judges, however I was consistent though in my grading so that didn't bother me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I could see various take downs, throws, etc. etc. in this softer more flowing form.

There exist no throwing froms on earth. Should someone create it?

My senior SC brother created this throwing form.

I created this throwing form about 30 years ago.

 

[Mark Lynn]

There exist no throwing froms on earth. Should someone create it?

Sir
I'm not sure I'm following you. I mean no disrespect. Would you clarify your point to me since you quoted me?

BTW I enjoyed the videos of your form and your senior.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Would you clarify your point to me since you quoted me?

You mentioned that you have seen someone created throwing (take down) soft form.

To create a new striking art form may not have much value. But to create a throwing art , or striking art and throwing art integration form will have value.

 

[zzj]

You mentioned that you have seen someone created throwing (take down) soft form.

To create a new striking art form may not have much value. But to create a throwing art , or striking art and throwing art integration form will have value.

To me the tai chi forms I practice (Chen & Cheng Man Ching) includes for striking, grappling and throwing, I don’t know if you feel the same way about the Chang tai chi form.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me the tai chi forms I practice (Chen & Cheng Man Ching) includes for striking, grappling and throwing, I don’t know if you feel the same way about the Chang tai chi form.

Can you find hip throw (mother of all throws) in your Cheng Man Ching Taiji form? Do you have a move that you try to touch your head to your knee?

 

[zzj]

Can you find hip throw (mother of all throws) in your Cheng Man Ching Taiji form? Do you have a move that you try to touch your head to your knee?

No hip throws, I practiced hip throws in Judo, and while I agree that they are basic throws, to call them ‘mother of all throws’ may be stretching it a bit.

The throws I pull off in tai chi are more like take downs, sweeps or a shoulder throw occasionally.

EDIT: the shoulder throw is a hip throw too, however that is found in Chen style, the yang version seems to not emphasize the throwing aspect of the move ‘Fan through back / 扇通背

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the move ‘Fan through back / 扇通背

There are 2 errors that have been made in Taiji for many years.

1. The "扇通背 - Fan through back" should be "肩通背 - Shoulder through back"
2. The "抱虎归山 - carry tiger back to mountain" should be "饱虎归山 - well fed tiger return back to mountain".

 

[zzj]

There are 2 errors that have been made in Taiji for many years.

1. The "扇通背 - Fan through back" should be "肩通背 - Shoulder through back"
2. The "抱虎归山 - carry tiger back to mountain" should be "饱虎归山 - well fed tiger return back to mountain".

I related the ‘fan’ to the spreading arc that my hand draws when I execute the throwing motion. Seems plausible enough to me, I have no strong opinion on the various names of the movements otherwise.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Can you find the following combo sequence in any MA form that you have learned/seen? Do you think there can be value to record this combo sequence into a form?

Your thought?

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under-hooks,
- bear hug,
- knee strike,
- outer hook.

 

[Danny T]

Can you find the following combo sequence in any MA form that you have learned/seen? Do you think there can be value to record this combo sequence into a form?

Your thought?

- roundhouse kick,
- side kick,
- double under-hooks,
- bear hug,
- knee strike,
- outer hook.

You want to create a form or a combination of moves (actions) to drill against a resisting opponent or create a form to practice in the air?
Just work the combination a few times and slowly increase the resistance. Then spar it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You want to create a form or a combination of moves (actions) to drill against a resisting opponent or create a form to practice in the air?
Just work the combination a few times and slowly increase the resistance. Then spar it.

I want to record that information so that information won't be lost.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I want to record that information so that information won't be lost.

You make it sound like nobody has ever thought to use that combination before and therefore you need to record it to make it known that you thought of it first. Are you also going to name the combination after yourself?

 

[axelb]

There exist no throwing froms on earth. Should someone create it?

The style of Judo I studied (25 years ago) had kata (forms) at higher student grades and instructor grades.
Here are the ones I learnt:

To me it was more like a formal drill, which at the time was different experience having worked most in the drill format.

Probably not considered the same to most as a "form" as it has 2 people in it.

My senior SC brother created this throwing form.

I created this throwing form about 30 years ago.

very cool! Interesting that the moves in it look much like the ChangQuan form moves I learnt, which were never presented to me in a format that could be translated to wrestling moves.

 

[wab25]

There exist no throwing froms on earth. Should someone create it?

Actually, yes there are throwing forms. I can't speak for the Chinese arts... but the Japanese arts certainly contain throwing forms. This one is from Judo: Ju No Kata

Ok, yes that requires 2 people. Karate has one person kata with throws in them. Lets start with Heian Shodan:

Did you see them? Here is an article to explain what you just saw. Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate The quick summary is that Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, taught Gedan Barai (forward down block) as a throw. Every step forward, downblock you saw in that kata, was him stepping his leg behind his opponents leg, and dumping the opponent over it.

Further, that lunge punch... that is O'goshi, your hip throw (mother of all throws) you were asking for. The hand going into chamber has the other guys arm. The semi circular forward step is stepping around the other guy legs and positioning your hip. The "punch" is the throw over the hip. You can start in a Judo grip with your opponent, your left hand grabbing their right sleave. Step forward, doing Gedan Barai while keeping your grips on lapel and sleave. That will break his balance and structure. Then drop your right hand under his left arm. Then step through for the lunge punch... this will produce O'goshi as you complete the punch.

So that kata, Heian Shodan starts with Gedan Barai, Lunge Punch. Funakoshi taught Gedan Barai as a wedge throw to the rear. It can also be taught as the off balancing move to set up the hip throw during the lunge punch. So, Heian Shodan starts with 2 throws in the first 2 movements. Sure, there are plenty of other interpretations as well. To me, thats the genius in these kata / forms. They are teaching you to do many things at the same time. Those 2 moves can be: block kick and punch, wedge throw to rear and punch the next guy, off balance and hip throw, escape from cross hand grab and ulna press...

 

[Balrog]

You can repeat Ernest Hemingway "The old man and the sea" from the 1st word to the last word 10,000 times in your life. It's still Hemingway's book and not yours. If you don't create, you are just a copy machine, no more and no less.

When are you going to create your own form?

We are actually required to do that in the ATA. When you make 6th Degree, your form is 96 moves long. ATA gives us 66 moves. We have to come up with 30 moves of our own that integrate into the form. Everyone starts the same, then goes crazy in the middle, and then ends the same.

 

[skribs]

There exist no throwing froms on earth. Should someone create it?

I am really confused by what you mean here. The post you quoted said throwing forms exist. Then you go on in your post to show videos of throwing forms that already exist. This seems really out of place to me.

 

[Danny T]

Actually, yes there are throwing forms. I can't speak for the Chinese arts... but the Japanese arts certainly contain throwing forms. This one is from Judo: Ju No Kata

Ok, yes that requires 2 people. Karate has one person kata with throws in them. Lets start with Heian Shodan:

Did you see them? Here is an article to explain what you just saw. Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate The quick summary is that Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, taught Gedan Barai (forward down block) as a throw. Every step forward, downblock you saw in that kata, was him stepping his leg behind his opponents leg, and dumping the opponent over it.

Further, that lunge punch... that is O'goshi, your hip throw (mother of all throws) you were asking for. The hand going into chamber has the other guys arm. The semi circular forward step is stepping around the other guy legs and positioning your hip. The "punch" is the throw over the hip. You can start in a Judo grip with your opponent, your left hand grabbing their right sleave. Step forward, doing Gedan Barai while keeping your grips on lapel and sleave. That will break his balance and structure. Then drop your right hand under his left arm. Then step through for the lunge punch... this will produce O'goshi as you complete the punch.

So that kata, Heian Shodan starts with Gedan Barai, Lunge Punch. Funakoshi taught Gedan Barai as a wedge throw to the rear. It can also be taught as the off balancing move to set up the hip throw during the lunge punch. So, Heian Shodan starts with 2 throws in the first 2 movements. Sure, there are plenty of other interpretations as well. To me, thats the genius in these kata / forms. They are teaching you to do many things at the same time. Those 2 moves can be: block kick and punch, wedge throw to rear and punch the next guy, off balance and hip throw, escape from cross hand grab and ulna press...

Yep...that is more like what I learned from my first shotokan instructor. He actually wasn't big on spending a lot of time on doing kata but actually working attacks and counters then having us find the moves within the kata/s.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Actually, yes there are throwing forms. I can't speak for the Chinese arts... but the Japanese arts certainly contain throwing forms. This one is from Judo: Ju No Kata

Ok, yes that requires 2 people. Karate has one person kata with throws in them. Lets start with Heian Shodan:

Did you see them? Here is an article to explain what you just saw. Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate The quick summary is that Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, taught Gedan Barai (forward down block) as a throw. Every step forward, downblock you saw in that kata, was him stepping his leg behind his opponents leg, and dumping the opponent over it.

Further, that lunge punch... that is O'goshi, your hip throw (mother of all throws) you were asking for. The hand going into chamber has the other guys arm. The semi circular forward step is stepping around the other guy legs and positioning your hip. The "punch" is the throw over the hip. You can start in a Judo grip with your opponent, your left hand grabbing their right sleave. Step forward, doing Gedan Barai while keeping your grips on lapel and sleave. That will break his balance and structure. Then drop your right hand under his left arm. Then step through for the lunge punch... this will produce O'goshi as you complete the punch.

So that kata, Heian Shodan starts with Gedan Barai, Lunge Punch. Funakoshi taught Gedan Barai as a wedge throw to the rear. It can also be taught as the off balancing move to set up the hip throw during the lunge punch. So, Heian Shodan starts with 2 throws in the first 2 movements. Sure, there are plenty of other interpretations as well. To me, thats the genius in these kata / forms. They are teaching you to do many things at the same time. Those 2 moves can be: block kick and punch, wedge throw to rear and punch the next guy, off balance and hip throw, escape from cross hand grab and ulna press...

A couple of thoughts on the kata you mention ...

I don't think that the Judo kata are really about remembering or passing on a syllabus of actual applications (as KFW advocates). A good competition judoka will have an arsenal of variations and combinations which are not covered in any kata. The kata I've practiced, the Nage No Kata, appears at first glance to be just a ritualized demonstration of basic throws. The real purpose, I believe, is to remind the practitioners of an experience which is hard to reliably reproduce in randori - the ideal perfect moment when you manage to perfectly blend with uke's energy to throw him effortlessly. I haven't trained in the Ju No Kata, but it appears to be a further abstraction away from actual application of throws - a stylized exploration of body alignment and balance points.

Regarding the grappling contained within karate forms, I have an issue with how they are normally practiced. More often than not, the details of timing, alignment, muscle sequencing, power generation, etc. as performed in the kata do not match the supposed corresponding grappling applications.

Take the wedge throw you mentioned. The typical application in sparring might look like this:
Left foot steps forward slightly while the right arm extends in an action like a reverse punch (although the "punch" may "miss" to the opponent's right). He may really extend the right arm reach, creating an elastic stretch along his right side. The momentum continues as the karateka allows that stretch to bring his right hip forward, crashing into the opponent's left leg as the right arm pulls outwards and slightly back across the opponent's upper torso, creating the throw. Often the initial impact from the forward advance just disrupts the opponent's structure and the throw will be finished by the karateka turning outwards with the whole body to keep the opponent from regaining his balance.

I have never seen Gedan Barai performed this way in Heian Shodan. The preparatory step with the other foot and cross-reach is not there. The angle of force for the arm action is all wrong. In the kata, the "blocking" action is as much forward as outwards (not back at all). The impact area of the arm would be about hip height, rather than the upper torso as needed for ideal leverage. The arm barely extends past the outside of the stepping leg, thereby losing some of the disruptive effect. The outside pivot at the end never occurs. There are also some subtle matters of which muscles get activated in which order to produce power. It's hard to describe those in print, but the sequence used in the solo kata does not appear to match the ideal sequence for the throw.

To be clear, I believe the karateka who tell me that these moves are hidden in the form. My complaint is that they have become too well hidden - the form as I have typically seen it performed by modern practitioners will teach the wrong body dynamics for the actual grappling techniques. In that case, I don't see the point of having them in there at all.

 

[wab25]

I don't think that the Judo kata are really about remembering or passing on a syllabus of actual applications (as KFW advocates).

I have been to a couple of classes on Ju No Kata, taught by a USJA 7th dan in Judo. He is also nationally certified as a Kata Judge in all the Judo Kata. He taught that Ju No Kata contained many techniques that the older jujitsu schools wanted preserved. Specifically when you bend uke's backwards, he taught that as learning to lock uke's spine so that you could immobilize him on the battlefield. Also, uke was learning the counter to such a spine lock. In that sense, it is preserving techniques as KFW was talking about, some of those being throws. Now, searching online, I have not found anything directly talking about the techniques in Ju No Kata in that way, they usually talk about Ju No Kata preserving Kano's idea on Ju. It shows the strategies of yielding, being flexible, moving in harmony as well as when and how to use strength. This is inline with KFW wanting to document attack left, attack right and attack up, attack down. KFW was saying that there were no kata / forms involving throws. This article: http://www.bhjudo.com/Info/Benefits of Judo Kata.pdf talks about how the Judo Kata were developed.

The major roadblock to the unification was that most martial arts masters wanted to ensure their secret life-threatening superior techniques were incorporated into judo and not be eliminated from existence. However, Jigoro Kano’s Judo philosophy was to create a modern art with rule and safety features integrated so that it could someday be propagated throughout the world. Jigoro Kano convinced the unyielding masters by offering kata as a means of recognizing and maintaining certain dangerous techniques, thereby preserving their secret techniques and ultimately unifying the many jujitsu clans towards modern judo.

This shows that much of the Judo Kata involve both throws and a way to maintain dangerous historical techniques within a system. I will do more research on Ju No Kata specifically.

To be clear, I believe the karateka who tell me that these moves are hidden in the form. My complaint is that they have become too well hidden - the form as I have typically seen it performed by modern practitioners will teach the wrong body dynamics for the actual grappling techniques. In that case, I don't see the point of having them in there at all.

I do see much of what you see... with regard to the specifics of these throws. Since Funakoshi and his direct students taught many of these moves as throws and / or grapples, I do not believe that the original intent was to have them "hidden." I think it more likely that some westerner went over to Japan, wanting to learn quickly and return home... thinking it was a block, using your forearm to stop the shin, when your opponent kicks. It has sense been taught that way for years. I wonder if that view of the movement, changed the order of operation and method of power generation that we see now. Sadly, I cannot train with Funakoshi to see how he performed these moves.

As far as not having the correct set up for the throw, in the Heian Katas... I believe the Heian Katas were developed to teach school children the basic stances and movements prior to learning the real Kata. So, it wouldn't necessarily include the set up to it. However, using my o'goshi version, I can see the first 2 movements including both the setup and completion of o'goshi.

At the end of the day, I am stuck like you, with the words of karateka and Funakoshi, that these are throws. But, I think their "hidden" nature has been introduced by folks not fully understanding what they practiced and taught. Essentially, user error. I would love to see some quality film of Funakoshi performing his kata. It would be interesting for sure.

As to this thread, Funakoshi did put throws into his Kata...