correcting things that are wrong

[twinkletoes]

I have a question for everyone. Under what circumstances would you correct your instructor or school? Let me give some examples.

Under things that aren't worth correcting:

Our school's patch prominently features 3 kanji. I was a japanese major for 3 years, during which time I learned that these kanji do not say what they are supposed to. Two of them are supposed to be there (although their meanings are switched), and the third one is way off. The school patch has been around for over 25 years. It doesn't seem worth changing, since nobody else has ever noticed.

Additionally, I would think that if your head instructor taught something wrong (like just had a brain fart one day and taught the wrong thing) that isn't worth correcting either. It will get ironed out later, and it's better than being that smart aleck who looks like he is always waiting for the instructor to make a mistake.

What if your instructor taught something you felt was dangerous? What if he expressed a view that he couldn't really back up with experience, and you knew from your experience that it was wrong? (I'm speaking of things that matter, not trivial things.) For example, what if he started teaching "Ah, when they have a knife, you don't really have to control it. Just kick the arm and the knife will be magically disarmed" and you felt that was horribly wrong? Would you say something? (Obviously not at the time).

In what situations would you voice a correction?

~TT

 

[MJS]

TT-Interesting post! I dont see anything wrong with having a question or questioning the effectiveness of something. However, there are a few ways I'd go about it.

First, like you said, I feel that not doing it at the time is the best thing. If its a question about the tech. in the sense that you doint understand a move, then yeah, do it right there. If its the effectiveness of the tech. then wait until later.

Second, I would probably ask the Inst. or another BB their opinion about the effectiveness of it. Granted, there are some Inst. out there that would probably take offense to your questioning of them. But rather than get mad, they should take you aside and show you the finer points of the tech. I've seen and heard stories and I know you have too, about people turning their question into more of a challenge of the Inst. IFO a group of people. We both know of course, what this usually leads to!!!

Its a shame that people try to pass off things that would probably get the person doing them killed. There was a very interesting article in an issue of Black Belt magazine. It talked about how some Inst. intentionally demo. the tech. on a student that they know will make them look good. The senior student usually knows the tech. and knows how to properly react. By doing this, they give the impression to the rest of the group that the tech. really worked! Regarding a knife, the last thing I would ever do is kick it out of the persons hand.

Mike

 

[KanoLives]

Hey it's a CT convention here.

I would probably wait until after class and have my Inst. go over the tech with me and if I still felt it was useless, I'd probably ask questions such as why wouldn't you do such and such in this situation or whatever. I don't think it would be good to do it in front of class. Personally I am usually the one who has techs demonstrated on in class. There have been a couple of times where my Inst was explaining the tech and doing it on me but it did not work properly. He simply said "Let's try that again". Next thing I know I'm flat on my back with a palm heel heading for my nose. This relates to somtimes when I'm trying a tech (on a resisting partner) I can't execute it properly. My Inst sees this and then comes over. My partner fully resists my Inst, but it doesn't matter because proper technique prevails. Anyway I think if you need to correct the Inst it should be done after class. One time I corrected my Inst in class but it was for something stupid. We were doing a form and he stepped the wrong way because he was doing it like a mirror image of the students but he was really supposed to be going along with us. No big deal I just said shouldn't you be going the other way. He laughed said Yup and then finished the form. No problem there.

 

[twinkletoes]

When I say "things that are wrong" I don't mean to imply "things that I think are ineffective", although that is certainly a type of thing that could be wrong.

What if things are...

...dangerous. "Oh, you kick the front of the knee here with your instep." That's one I've heard before, and frankly, I would break my instep if I ever tried that. The small bones of my instep are no match for someone else's knee.

...mistranslated? "Um, that word means X" and it doesn't. What if it's an important term?

...misused? I know of a couple terms that are coming into full mis-use around the school where I teach. For example, the term "reverse punch" is starting to be used, by senior instructors, for strikes that are not a reverse punch. It seems to me it's just lack of understanding--they haven't ever really thought about what makes it a reverse punch, or seen the basic difference explained. I hate to chalk it up to laziness. It doesn't seem worth correcting, but it bothers me when instructors present less than their most knowledgable and professional front.

~TT

 

[liangzhicheng]

This is a touchy subject...let people be misinformed/injure themselves or potentially create a conflict? First I'll touch on mistranslation/wrong usage. I would first make sure that you are absolutely correct. If you can find a good source, bring it up. In your example of incorrect kanji, perhaps you could bring in a dictionary? As for the reverse punch example, I would suggest looking for sources from the same style, avoiding potential arguments over crosstraining. This type of misinformation is easier to deal with than a dangerous technique, IMHO. Depending on your skill level and relationship with the instructors, you could try proposing a viable alternative, and asking for discussion on the pros and cons of both versions. During this discussion, bring up your concern about the weakness of the instep. If your instructors are rational, they'll either have a good explanation for their reasoning, or they will agree that your version seems better. If possible, I'd advise against making this a challenge to their authority. If your instructors are irrational and don't want to hear about any alternatives, well, you might be better off training elsewhere...Good luck

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

This is a tough one. It depends on the instructor, how traditional the school is, and when/where/how you offer the correction.

For instance, at my old Kenpo school, a lower belt would not get a warm reception correcting the Sensei in front of a class of 25 or 30 people.

A better approach might be privately asking the instructor for an explanation or having a discussion on the mat just after class closes or when other students are focused elsewhere.

 

[OULobo]

Great question.

Here's another one. What do you do if a higher rank (not the head instructor) shows a technique that is flat out wrong and you know it is. When a lower rank than both of you thinks its wrong and asks you if it is, what do you say?

 

[twinkletoes]

I realize that much of this is contextual, but what things do you all feel are worth correcting?

For example, in the cases I have given, I don't think it's worth it to correct terminology, or translations. It's not an emphasis, and it doesn't hurt anybody.

On the other hand, I have had instructors who are my peers do things that I felt were dangerous--I'm talking about ideas they taught, not drills they used. If a drill were dangerous, I would pull the instructor to the side for a minute and ask if they were comfortable with what they were about to get into.

I'll give some examples: some of the other Kenpo instructors were allowing students to grappling, starting from standing, and ending with a submission. Now, I love this idea, but none of the *instructors* knew any submissions, let alone the students, so most of them were either yanking on each other's necks with their forearms, or trying to rip finger and wristlocks off as quickly as they could. This just seemed reckless, so I pulled the instructor and explained I thought it was a bad idea. I suggested other rules they could try.

Also, I did pull an instructor once over the instep-to-the-knee thing. He was going around correcting students who were kicking the thigh. I felt this was a hazardous idea to be encouraging, so I yanked him too.

So what, for YOU, is worth correcting?

~TT

 

[satans.barber]

At our school I encourage people to pick me up on things all the time, if they think I'm teaching them wrong. If they don't agree on something, then we talk about it and try to come to a logical conclusion.

Sometimes I'm right, sometimes they're right - as long as well all understand it in the end that's all that matters.

Instructors are people, not superheroes! We make mistakes and mis-interpreatations just like anyone else.

Certainly I would hate to think people daren't tell me when something was wrong just because they though I was better than them and it wasn't their place or something, we're all equals as far as I'm concerned.

Ian.

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by satans.barber
At our school I encourage people to pick me up on things all the time, if they think I'm teaching them wrong. If they don't agree on something, then we talk about it and try to come to a logical conclusion.

Sometimes I'm right, sometimes they're right - as long as well all understand it in the end that's all that matters.

Instructors are people, not superheroes! We make mistakes and mis-interpreatations just like anyone else.

Certainly I would hate to think people daren't tell me when something was wrong just because they though I was better than them and it wasn't their place or something, we're all equals as far as I'm concerned.

Ian.

Cool answer. Much respect.

 

[liangzhicheng]

If only more teachers had the same approach as you do.... Bravo!

 

[Damian Mavis]

Twinkletoes, with everything you said in this thread..... this is not a good martial arts school. Teaching stuff they don't even know how to do? (hey grappling is hip right now! everybody grapple! even though none of us have ever grappled!) Kicking hard bone with the top of the foot? Lack of general knowledge about their own art? These guys are a joke. Get out now and find a better school.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[twinkletoes]

Damian,

It's not so bad as it sounds here. These are isolated instances.

For example, the kicking to the knee with the instep was one of the brand new black belts (I was supervising him), and he's no longer with us (for probably obvious reasons-he didn't really know what he was doing).

The grappling thing is probably my fault in a roundabout way, because I encourage grappling games in the classes. I do lots of jduo-randori type games, and I think a couple other instructors were trying to be supportive. I think sometimes they are just overly exuberant and underly educated.

Overall the school sticks to what it knows, and does that well. But there are always a couple of black belts who are only half there, if you know what I mean

Don't mistake my complaining about them as being representative of the school. I don't mean for it to sound that way.

~TT

 

[kenpo2dabone]

Twinkletoes,

We had a policy in our school that a student in a class could ask any question that they want with out reservation. This included questioning the validity of a technique. As I came up through the ranks their were techniques that I did not care for and did not work for me as well as they did for others. Fortunately, that is the beauty of Kenpo. The Techniques can be adapted per the individual so long as they are folowing proper Kenpo principles. Sorry got off subject. My point is, if you are the one being taught this material then you have every right to question your instructor on the validity of the technique. I know when I would question techniques I either got a very logical answer or my instructor and I would have a blast taking the technique apart and playing with it and maybe even tweeking it a little to make it work. I would learne more on those days than I did in a month of classes. Now, if you are not the student and you are merely an observer then it would be better to take the instructor aside after he/she is finished teaching and ask them privately what they were teaching and then make the correction at that time. Let them, the next time they teach that student, correct what they taught so they don't lose the respect of the student.

Incidentaly, it sounds like there are a lot of Black belts running around in your school. Not to mention the ones that you feel are half a$$ed. I would question the quality of instruction at a school that promotes black belts that are half a$$ed. You might be training at a black belt factory. Please don't take that as a knock against you, at least you are asking questions. It has just been my experience in Kenpo that Black belts are few and far between. in the eight years I was at my original Kenpo school, there were four black belts awarded. Two of them were with in the first year I started and they had been at the school for about eight years. The next two were myself and a guy that came through the ranks with me that tested shortly after I did. Take a close look at the black belts in your school and ask yourself how many of them do you respect enough to be your instructor. If there are, say ten black belts and one or two fo them seem worthy, then I might consider finding a school of a higher calibure. If you feel that you are getting what you are seeking on your Martial Arts journey then throw everything I just wrote out the window and keep on training.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKf

 

[Disco]

There are a few possible inherent problems that could surface, should you openly question. I am basing this on the premise that you wish to correct something that could/would have negitive results if the person tried to use a certain technique.

If we are only talking of 1 or 2 isolated miscued tech's, such as the instep to the knee you mentioned. I would suggest that during that phase of training, show your training partner the alternate (correct ) way. If you show enough people, the Instructor will take notice and most likely question. Then you can tell him in private that the way the tech was being taught was flawed. All you were doing was making a correction to benefit the students, which in turn makes him look better. If the Instructor fails to appriciate your input and goes off on you, then your in the wrong school. I've seen to many MacDojo's that teach techniques that will not work for some and it will get them hurt if they attempt to use it, but they will not deviate from their programed curriculum.

If it's only minor items such as the patch, I say as the say on the Soprano"s - Faaagetaboutit........... :rofl:

 

[John Bishop]

Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
Twinkletoes,


Incidentaly, it sounds like there are a lot of Black belts running around in your school. Not to mention the ones that you feel are half a$$ed. I would question the quality of instruction at a school that promotes black belts that are half a$$ed. You might be training at a black belt factory. Please don't take that as a knock against you, at least you are asking questions. It has just been my experience in Kenpo that Black belts are few and far between. in the eight years I was at my original Kenpo school, there were four black belts awarded. Two of them were with in the first year I started and they had been at the school for about eight years. The next two were myself and a guy that came through the ranks with me that tested shortly after I did. Take a close look at the black belts in your school and ask yourself how many of them do you respect enough to be your instructor. If there are, say ten black belts and one or two fo them seem worthy, then I might consider finding a school of a higher calibure. If you feel that you are getting what you are seeking on your Martial Arts journey then throw everything I just wrote out the window and keep on training.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKf

My Thoughts exactly.

 

[twinkletoes]

Mike (and John),

No offense taken at all. I understand how it can sound that way. However, I think these isolated instances are making it sound different than it is. In the 27 year history of our school, there have been only about 50 black belts, and there have been two in the last 4 years. It takes an average of 8-10 years to reach black, and the standards are very high.

Let me give you some info on "why" some of these discrepancies occur. This may help my stories make a little more sense.

Our curriculum is not the Parker System, and neither is it the Tracy system. It is a modified branch of the Tracy system, which we have continued unmodified from our instructor (the only changes he made were to rearrange some of the techniques within the curriculum). Up until last year, our curriculum was not recorded. There was no "final word" on how a technique was executed unless we took it to our head instructor. Variations occurred. We recognized that variation is essential to growth, but also that a default technique was necessary. We took two years producing a final draft of the entire technique curriculum (forms are next). Now these problems are gone.

However, before we did that, there was a period after our head instructor retired (Feb 2001) in which there was some ambiguity as to the proper way to execute certain techniques. Some people had learned one way, while others learned another. Because different instructors taught each of us, sometimes our original notes from the lower ranks were different. (Our school promoted its first black belts in the early 80's. By the time I came on the scene in '88 there were different teachers each day of the week). Our newly promoted head instructor was instrumental in developing a written curriculum, but his style is to help us process and work through ideas, rather than just saying "it's like this."

Now these problems are pretty much behind us. We are working now on the katas, and on understanding some of the minute differences between our personal interpretations of movements and techniques. We realize that so long as the movements are consistent with principle and we are comfortable teaching and performing them, it should not matter if X technique has a vertical fist or a middle finger fist, for example.

On a totally personal note, my own goals are no longer really in Kenpo. In the 15 years I have pursued it I have learned a great deal, but perhaps the most important thing I learned is that the approach does not always fit my personality. That is why I train so heavily in other arts, and why I am now continuing my own training in those areas.

Best,

~TT