Controlling a weapon

[loki09789]

Paul,

If you or anyone else took my words as saying the TKD would not work, or that FMA is the best ins all situations, then I will restate my words. TKD works. FMA works. It is up to the person not the art.

:asian:

Not directed at you. Just noticing that the tone of the thread has been shifting from 'controls should be used' to sort of a TKD/Hard style vs. Soft style/Kenpo/FMA direction. My point is that what ever you know best is what you are going to have faith will work. The problem is when that faith turns to fanaticism and you start to think that what you know best IS the best. Not so. Whatever works is the best and I like having a few tools for each of the ranges mentioned (kicking, blocking/checkin, grappling.... running/shooting ) that I can do in my sleep instead of a whole bunch of skills in only one of these ranges - but only can pull off a handful anyway.

Just look at kick boxing/San Shou/K-1/....any other MMA format. The ability to do a few, powerful and well timed/executed techniques in each of the ranges is what gets the job done. Tool box with a few simple/multi-purpose tools versus surgical bag with tons of precise, single purpose tools. Each has its place but fighting/self defense isn't surgery. Long and short for me is that I am a product of my make up and training. In my program and mentallity, I was street effective before Green Belt/equivelant. I wasn't fancy or beautiful (shut up TOM!) but I was effective. After that base of a few essentials was established, refinement and 'art' was more of an emphasis in training.

As far as control or not to control, what distance to go to..... who knows until I get there.

 

[MA-Caver]

Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.
-Rob

Shoot, if I get ahold of that weapon (in a for-real fight) you can bet your **** I'm gonna use it against the SOB who's trying to use it on me. Mebbe it's the wrong attitude for a Martial Artist but the average street attacker isn't going to be a well trained MA , at least it's hoped that they won't be, because if they are and they still cowardly attack you (for whatever reason) then they went to the wrong school... anyway using honorable moves and techniques is of course up to the individual user... but I'll still hold to my oldest brother's words that: "There's no such thing as a fair fight" and that means me too.

 

[MichiganTKD]

My responses to an armed attacker will also depend on a lot of factors:
How much distance I have (room to move vs. trapped against a wall), what I am wearing, the environment, and the type of weapon used.

If I have room to move, and he uses a knife, I am going to maintain as much distance between him and me as I can and keep moving. Unless he plans on throwing it, it is difficult to hit somone with a knife who stays back and keeps moving. I never said or implied I would kick it out of his hands. I will use timing and footwork to kick him if he tries to rush in. And yes, I believe it is possible to do that despite what some people may think. If I am against a wall or cornered, obviously I will not be able to kick him. But I can still turn myself into a slippery bastard and keep moving.

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

For example, if I want to transport a hot plate or dish across a room, I have a couple of options. I can carry it across, increasing my chances of getting burned. I can physically hit it, which will get it across but possibly damage it or the wall (not desirable in that circumstance), or I can use a potholder. However, if not potholder is available, that is not an option.

 

[8253]

the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique these things very very rarely go as practiced. doing it in a controlled environment is a lot different that doing it on the street. There are too many variables to say that this one thing or that one thing will work. The best one can do is to adapt to different situations the best they can and use what knowledge they have to survive. whether it be a kick, punch, or technique.

 

[Zoran]

Well I usually try to stay politically correct, but....

the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique....

I do have to disagree. It does matter what MA you study. Or more accurately, it matters if your system, what ever that may be, is being taught with a focus on logical combat principles.

Due to a couple of jobs I had, I have had to deal with some real self defense with weapons. The system I was taught deals with self defense for the street and is not orientated for sport nor does it teach traditional techniques without thought to the how's or why's. It saved my *** on a couple of occasions.

While the system doesn't so much mean anything, it is how that system is taught that means the world when it comes to self defense of any kind. A sport orientated system will never prepare you as well for real self defense situations as a combat orientated school will. Just as a combat school will not prepare me to point spar very well.

I would not go to Tai Chi to learn how to Box,
I would not go to Boxing to learn how to grapple,
I would not go to Judo to compete in a Karate tournament,
and I would not go to a Sport Karate school to learn how to defend myself.

Anyway, it's just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. You may now disagree and give me some bad karma. :asian:

 

[MJS]

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

All of the weapon disarms in the FMA can be translated to enpty hand. Thats the beauty of it. The limb destructions, strikes, and locks offer a wide variety of things to choose from. They still have their kicks, but they're not gonna rely on them until control has been gained. IMO, once you are in close, your elbows and knees are going to play a big part. Oh wait..I forgot...you dont think its good to have a wide assortment of things right???

But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

Dude, if you dont get control of the weapon, it can still be used against you. You're not exposing yourself to anything. Once control is gained, you're unloading on the attacker, and going for a disarm of the weapon. Far away, that stick is very dangerous, but in close, they have the butt end of the stick to strike with..thats it. Not gonna hurt as much as the tip being swung full speed.

Mike

 

[MJS]

the bottom line is it dosent matter what ma you are studying or how much you practice a certain punch, kick, or technique these things very very rarely go as practiced. doing it in a controlled environment is a lot different that doing it on the street. There are too many variables to say that this one thing or that one thing will work. The best one can do is to adapt to different situations the best they can and use what knowledge they have to survive. whether it be a kick, punch, or technique.

And thats the reason people get screwed on the street. During practice, if those techs. are not done with aliveness, you will NEVER get the feel of it. Put on a little gear and then try your stuff, with the 'attacker' really swinging at you. HUGE difference.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Well I usually try to stay politically correct, but....



I do have to disagree. It does matter what MA you study. Or more accurately, it matters if your system, what ever that may be, is being taught with a focus on logical combat principles.

Due to a couple of jobs I had, I have had to deal with some real self defense with weapons. The system I was taught deals with self defense for the street and is not orientated for sport nor does it teach traditional techniques without thought to the how's or why's. It saved my *** on a couple of occasions.

While the system doesn't so much mean anything, it is how that system is taught that means the world when it comes to self defense of any kind. A sport orientated system will never prepare you as well for real self defense situations as a combat orientated school will. Just as a combat school will not prepare me to point spar very well.

I would not go to Tai Chi to learn how to Box,
I would not go to Boxing to learn how to grapple,
I would not go to Judo to compete in a Karate tournament,
and I would not go to a Sport Karate school to learn how to defend myself.

Anyway, it's just my opinion and you can take it for what it's worth. You may now disagree and give me some bad karma. :asian:

Very good post. Many excellent points made!!!! :asian: :asian:

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

My responses to an armed attacker will also depend on a lot of factors:
How much distance I have (room to move vs. trapped against a wall), what I am wearing, the environment, and the type of weapon used.

If I have room to move, and he uses a knife, I am going to maintain as much distance between him and me as I can and keep moving. Unless he plans on throwing it, it is difficult to hit somone with a knife who stays back and keeps moving. I never said or implied I would kick it out of his hands. I will use timing and footwork to kick him if he tries to rush in. And yes, I believe it is possible to do that despite what some people may think. If I am against a wall or cornered, obviously I will not be able to kick him. But I can still turn myself into a slippery bastard and keep moving.

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.

But getting back to what I was saying. In close, I'm going to block and counter with whatever is most efficient at that time. If I try to grab his arm or control his weapon, by definition I am increasing my exposure time to a knife, gun , or club, allowing him a greater chance to contact me with it. Same with grappling. And I'm not saying a trained grappler would be any less effective. But the longer you are in contact with the attacker or his weapon, the greater the likelihood he will be able to injure you.

For example, if I want to transport a hot plate or dish across a room, I have a couple of options. I can carry it across, increasing my chances of getting burned. I can physically hit it, which will get it across but possibly damage it or the wall (not desirable in that circumstance), or I can use a potholder. However, if not potholder is available, that is not an option.

What I would do.

I would step to the left on the diagonal.

I would pass or parry the weapon, and strike the limb or other available target. I would not try to beat the weapon. I would try to control the limb controlling the weapon.

I know it works for me. 2x4's, axes, baseball bats, golf clubs and other improvised weapons. (* Not recommended for everyone *)

 

[bluenosekenpo]

I think that the point has been lost somewhere in this thread. The point isn’t who’s got the bestest (that’s a touch patronizing isn’t it?loki?) MA. . I believe,the point should be, what is the most effective application of a defense against a specific attack (regardless of style). I’ve noticed that there is a lot of ignorance and many misconceptions when it comes to comprehending the intentions, methodology and mechanics of the various arts (TKD,FMA,whatever). To that end, disregard all styles and think of the more general concepts. Then use it as a litmus to your own style and see how well it does.



Look beyond the superficial aspects of the MA’s (who’s kick or punch is better) and you will come across truisms that ring loud and clear and can be applied to any MA. These are some (paraphrased from an article by M. Brewer with observations of my own):



1) Get comfortable fighting at all ranges.

2) Stop the strike before it starts.

3) Be in the best physical and mental shape possible, (have you really come to terms with severely hurting or killing someone?).

4) Prepare for the worst enemy! (I train with this thought, always)

5) Follow up your initial attack with constant, overwhelming pressure.

6) Fight at the range that is disadvantageous to your opponent. i.e. if he has a stick, get in trapping range, if he’s a grappler, stay at kicking range.

7) Cause pain in one location, fake a strike there again and instead hit elsewhere, keep him guessing.

8) Expect and demonstrate the unexpected.

9) Avoid the fight if possible but if you can’t avoid the situation, fight to survive, don’t think of it as a fight of honor, a duel or delude yourself into thinking it’s about a noble victory, there will be no winners, just survivors.

10) In training, as in life, be humble, because there will always be someone willing to teach you a lesson in humility.



Feel free to add to this list, hope it wasn’t too pompous, what was that thing about humility again? Train like a tiger

 

[bluenosekenpo]

wow, sorry about the font folks, hard on the eyes.

 

[MJS]

As I said before, when I started this thread, it was really not intended to start talking about which art is best, although, that is whats happening. I posted the thread, because I was curious as to why there was no controlling, parry, trap, etc. and instead, just a kick to the midsection.

Its interesting though, because further into the article, the author talks about disarming the attacker. He says to lean back to avoid the weapon, and then immediately go forward, grab the arm, and throw strikes until he's disarmed. At least this makes more sense, though I'd rather not move away, but forward to jam the attack or off on an angle.

During my FMA class, at times, we'll put on a helmet and a glove and use a padded stick to spar. Its really amazing as to how quickly the distance can be closed, and how many times you can be hit. IMO, many times, people do that overhead swing, the defender defends, and thats it. Unfortunately, what gets left out, is the "what if" phase of the training. During the sparring, as i said, many strikes are delivered, and the majority of the time, the person with the better offense, has the other guy strictly on defense, getting pounded. When you're put under the pressure of someone now really trying to hit you, the entire game changes. Training under pressure and with aliveness, will mentally prepare you for that time, when the stress level will be high, and your life depends on it!

Mike

 

[arnisandyz]

Now the question I have for FMA, and I'm not denigrating the FMA by any means, but assuming you will be empty handed when confronted by an armed attacker (I imagine you don't walk around carrying your sticks with you), how is what you would do any different than what a TKD or other empty-hand stylist would do? You still have to block and counterattack. We train for the purpose of defending ourselves with no weapons.
.

I train/have trained in both FMA and TKD. In FMA you train to use weapons and to defend against them. One might say there is an advantage in knowing the mechanics of the attack coming at you. I also get an overall feel that FMA practicioners have alot of respect for the weapon because they know its capabilities, where some of my TKD friends have more of a formulated solution "I'll just block and counter". Which brings me to the next point...most FMA would NOT block and counter as you mentioned, but take a counter offensive. There are no hard BLOCKS per se in FMA! Take an overhead stab from a knifer....a TKD stylist may do a hi-rising block and counter with a mid-section punch, something commonly taught in TKD schools against an overhand hammerfist strike or ax kick...a FMA stylist may sidestep and blend with the attack while simultaniously striking. WHY? The FMA stylist knows what will happen when the knife meets a hard resistance, because they are trained what to do if they are holding the knife. They are able to blend into the attack because they know how to attack with the knife.I have seen many good TKD practioners, but to rely on techniques based on empty hand skills alone vs a weapon may not be a complete solution.

 

[MJS]

Just to elaborate on my comment regarding control of the weapon. In the same magazine, there was another article talking about the FMA, and offering a few different tips. 2 things caught my eye. One part was talking about empty hand defense. It went on to talk about making sure that you work your techniques for controlling and disarming the opp. The second part was talking about grappling and its role. It went on to say that there is a good chance that you could end up grappling with the person while standing. Again it said that your first goal should be to control and neutralize the weapon.

Now, I'm not saying that this article is the end all- be all of defending yourself against a club or knife, but it is interesting how I made the comments I did, long before I had the chance to read that article.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I train/have trained in both FMA and TKD. In FMA you train to use weapons and to defend against them. One might say there is an advantage in knowing the mechanics of the attack coming at you. I also get an overall feel that FMA practicioners have alot of respect for the weapon because they know its capabilities, where some of my TKD friends have more of a formulated solution "I'll just block and counter". Which brings me to the next point...most FMA would NOT block and counter as you mentioned, but take a counter offensive. There are no hard BLOCKS per se in FMA! Take an overhead stab from a knifer....a TKD stylist may do a hi-rising block and counter with a mid-section punch, something commonly taught in TKD schools against an overhand hammerfist strike or ax kick...a FMA stylist may sidestep and blend with the attack while simultaniously striking. WHY? The FMA stylist knows what will happen when the knife meets a hard resistance, because they are trained what to do if they are holding the knife. They are able to blend into the attack because they know how to attack with the knife.I have seen many good TKD practioners, but to rely on techniques based on empty hand skills alone vs a weapon may not be a complete solution.

Very well said! :asian:

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

First, no disrespect meant, I just wish to comment.

1) Get comfortable fighting at all ranges.

I agree with this. Although recognize you will have a favorite range and try to control the fight to your advantage.

2) Stop the strike before it starts.

This is a good idea. I like it.
Yet, this also has negative side issues. You hit him first. No you are the bad guy in the eyes of the law and court. Just remember this the weapon is not a threat until there is clear and present intent and danger from the weapon. Or at least this is how it was explained to me by numerous officers and dectives and DA's. It is hard to prove fear and self defense when you attack first.

3) Be in the best physical and mental shape possible, (have you really come to terms with severely hurting or killing someone?).

This is very true. Are you ready to do what ever it takes?
Yet, in controllng the weapon you have in my mind a better chance of controlling the fight without one or both of you going to the hospital and possible jail even if you are the winner aka survivor.

4) Prepare for the worst enemy! (I train with this thought, always)

Yes, it is good to assume that you the bad guy will do his worst. Yet, remember yuo may need to prove this, and jsut because you assumed it, does not make it legal in court.

5) Follow up your initial attack with constant, overwhelming pressure.

Yes follow up, until the point of where you are in control and then maintain that control, do not cross the threshold of you becoming the attacker and bad guy. i.e. the bad uy down and your continue to hit and or kick him. You have him pinned and you decide to break something just because.

6) Fight at the range that is disadvantageous to your opponent. i.e. if he has a stick, get in trapping range, if he’s a grappler, stay at kicking range.

I agree, see above #1.

7) Cause pain in one location, fake a strike there again and instead hit elsewhere, keep him guessing.

Good Plan, yet it is good to hit the same spot again for compliance issues. Just do not over do it.

8) Expect and demonstrate the unexpected.

I do not know how to expect the unexpected. I can limit my reactions to surprise to continue working my game and techniques and tactics.

9) Avoid the fight if possible but if you can’t avoid the situation, fight to survive, don’t think of it as a fight of honor, a duel or delude yourself into thinking it’s about a noble victory, there will be no winners, just survivors.

Good points. Although, if you hurt the person too bad you might be called upon the stabalize or get help to avoid death. This assumes the bad guy is out. Otherwise leave and call for help anyways.

10) In training, as in life, be humble, because there will always be someone willing to teach you a lesson in humility.

I take a private from a 73 year old man each week. He humbles me everytime, just with is capabilities. So, you never know who they might be. See #8

Feel free to add to this list, hope it wasn’t too pompous, what was that thing about humility again? Train like a tiger

 

[MJS]

This is a good idea. I like it.
Yet, this also has negative side issues. You hit him first. No you are the bad guy in the eyes of the law and court. Just remember this the weapon is not a threat until there is clear and present intent and danger from the weapon. Or at least this is how it was explained to me by numerous officers and dectives and DA's. It is hard to prove fear and self defense when you attack first.

Sounds like something I've talked about in my pre-emptive strike thread. IMO, if someone has a weapon, there is a good chance that he's gonna be using it, not holding it for his health. HE already rose the threat level. Now, to John Q Public, it may look like hes using that stick as defense against me, but regardless, I'm not going to wait until hes already half way to my head before I move. As soon as he makes a threatening move, that IMO is the time to respond.

Mike

 

[bluenosekenpo]

First, no disrespect meant, I just wish to comment.

hi rich, i value all views and honest input.

This is very true. Are you ready to do what ever it takes?

i've done alot of soul searching over this, yup, whatever it takes. see #11

I do not know how to expect the unexpected. I can limit my reactions to surprise to continue working my game and techniques and tactics.

i was thinking about outside influences like his or your friends entering the fight. be situationaly aware.


#11 Use common sense.

regards

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sounds like something I've talked about in my pre-emptive strike thread. IMO, if someone has a weapon, there is a good chance that he's gonna be using it, not holding it for his health. HE already rose the threat level. Now, to John Q Public, it may look like hes using that stick as defense against me, but regardless, I'm not going to wait until hes already half way to my head before I move. As soon as he makes a threatening move, that IMO is the time to respond.

Mike

Mike,

I read your threatening move as he has startd to move towards you. Or the bad guy has cocked his weapon ready to swing, versus just sitting on his shoulder in his hand(s). In this case move to control the weapon and make sure he knows it was a bad move to even think about it.

Yet, from experience, I recommend you pay attention, to this fine line.

I do not think we are that far apart if at all.