Controlling a weapon

[MJS]

Well, here is another thread that I'm sure will cause some trouble!!

I recently got the new BB magazine in the mail. In it, there was an article featuring a TKD instructor. Didnt really read the article fully, but I did notice the picture that was shown. The 'attacker' had a club and was doing an overhead strike. The 'defender', obviously a TKD inst. was stepping to the side as the strike came down, and did a roundhouse kick to the midsection. That was it!!! End of tech.!!! I'm looking at this in shock, because IMO, that was a VERY poor example of a club defense. To think that a roundhouse kick with no controlling of the weapon would actually work in a real situation is crazy. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I was taught and still am taught, to get control of that weapon!!! Why rely on a kick to end it?? Unless that kick totally takes the guy out of the fight, that pretty much did nothing but make him madder.

Any thoughts??

Mike

 

[Cthulhu]

I think the problem is that many systems teach weapon 'defenses', but since they don't actually train how to use the weapons in question, they don't really know what a person can do with them.

On the other side of the coin, they are probably not training to deal w/ someone who has more than half a clue in terms of how to use said weapons. Still, it's a dangerous practice, in my opinion.

Cthulhu

 

[tshadowchaser]

Controling the weapon may not be possible in all situations. I would recommend trying to control it if possible.
A kick to the knee would (IMHO) have been much better. Following up with others techniques would seem the best course of action

 

[MJS]

Controling the weapon may not be possible in all situations. I would recommend trying to control it if possible.
A kick to the knee would (IMHO) have been much better. Following up with others techniques would seem the best course of action

Good point. I would think that a kick to the knee would get a greater effect than a snappy roundhouse to the stomach.

Mike

 

[Thesemindz]

This was taken directly off of the Kenponet written curiculum.



Checking the Storm (Front- Right Step-Through Overhead Club)
[video]- (576kb)

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike.

Grafting Flow
Thrusting Salute
Calming the Storm
Defying the Storm
3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick.
Grafting Flow
End of Circling Fans
End of Fatal Deviation
Triggered Salute
Five Swords
Defying the Storm
End of Circling Wing
4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.)
5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face. Note: Execute this strike by pulling your right hand from under your left.




Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.

Now, it is fair to point out that while the TKD practitioner was kicking the body, which is almost certaintly a by product of the sport mentality, the Kenpo practitioner kicks the knee and groin. We also end the technique by moving in on the opponent, putting us in position to control the weapon.

Maybe the TKD guy was just showing step one. Clearly, if the fight doesn't end there, he will have to "suffix" that technique.


-Rob

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, here is another thread that I'm sure will cause some trouble!!

I recently got the new BB magazine in the mail. In it, there was an article featuring a TKD instructor. Didnt really read the article fully, but I did notice the picture that was shown. The 'attacker' had a club and was doing an overhead strike. The 'defender', obviously a TKD inst. was stepping to the side as the strike came down, and did a roundhouse kick to the midsection. That was it!!! End of tech.!!! I'm looking at this in shock, because IMO, that was a VERY poor example of a club defense. To think that a roundhouse kick with no controlling of the weapon would actually work in a real situation is crazy. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I was taught and still am taught, to get control of that weapon!!! Why rely on a kick to end it?? Unless that kick totally takes the guy out of the fight, that pretty much did nothing but make him madder.

Any thoughts??

Mike

It could happen. Why spend time controling the weapon if you have to pull your foot out of your opponent's mid section? Say a cowboy boot with any real force could allow you to seek cover or deal with an even more pressing situation. :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

I would say controlling the weapon would be something to go for, but is not always a must. If you don't have control of the weapon however, you better be in the process of ending it and getting out of reach pretty quickly.

JMO,
7sm

 

[MichiganTKD]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

 

[MJS]

This was taken directly off of the Kenponet written curiculum.



Checking the Storm (Front- Right Step-Through Overhead Club)
[video]- (576kb)

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock comes at you with an overhead club swing.

2. Step your right foot to 3 o'clock as you execute a right inward parry. Pull your left foot to your right into a cat stance as you execute a left extended outward open hand block to check against any possible roundhouse club return strike.

Grafting Flow
Thrusting Salute
Calming the Storm
Defying the Storm
3. Immediately execute a left front snap kick to your attacker's groin. Land towards 10 o'clock into a twist stance so your right foot is aligned for the next kick.
Grafting Flow
End of Circling Fans
End of Fatal Deviation
Triggered Salute
Five Swords
Defying the Storm
End of Circling Wing
4. Execute a right step-through knife edge kick to the inside of your attacker's right knee. (This should take them down.)
5. Plant your right foot to 10 o'clock in a right neutral bow as you execute a right horizontal backfist to your attacker's face. Note: Execute this strike by pulling your right hand from under your left.




Now, I only post this to say that in Kenpo we also practice some weapons defenses that do not include weapon control. In fact, this technique is very similar to the one you described, in that we step off angle of an overhead club attack and then kick the guy. Of course, any experienced practitioner is going to grab the weapon and either immobilize it, remove it from the environment, or take it away. Maybe this happens before the kicks, maybe after. In this situation, I could maybe see stepping out of the way of the swing, quickly firing a few kicks in to stun my opponent, and then grabbing that weapon. It isn't really a step by step procedure, these things would happen almost simultaneously, although more or less in that order.

Now, it is fair to point out that while the TKD practitioner was kicking the body, which is almost certaintly a by product of the sport mentality, the Kenpo practitioner kicks the knee and groin. We also end the technique by moving in on the opponent, putting us in position to control the weapon.

Maybe the TKD guy was just showing step one. Clearly, if the fight doesn't end there, he will have to "suffix" that technique.


-Rob

After looking at the picture again, I noticed that there is no checking done on the weapon at all. At least with the Kenpo techs. checking is a big part. In addition, the kicks are going to targets that are going to get a much better reaction.

Mike

 

[MJS]

It could happen. Why spend time controling the weapon if you have to pull your foot out of your opponent's mid section? Say a cowboy boot with any real force could allow you to seek cover or deal with an even more pressing situation. :asian:

And you're gonna rely solely on that kick?? Why spend time controlling the weapon?? Well, you need to take into consideration a follow up swing for one. I've been training in the FMA for 6yrs, and we're always taught to keep control of that weapon. Would you not keep or get control of a knife before doing a counter??? Nice way to get cut up if you dont.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

Keep him at a distance with your kicks??? Yeah, ok! And when you go to extend that fancy kick, you're extending a nice target to get hit or cut. This isnt a Van Dam movie we're talking about here!

Mike

 

[MJS]

Thesemindz- Here are a few techs. where control is gained.

Evading the Storm
Calming the Storm
Obstructing the Storm
Defying the Storm

In all of those, a check/method of control is used. In Checking the Storm, the hands are up as a check for the return swing of the club. The tech. in the magazine had the defender side stepping and kicking. No check/method of control was exercised.

Mike

 

[bluenosekenpo]

hhmmmm, very interesting topic. what is the reality of the situation? you have a 30" stick at the end of a 25" arm! taking in to account the grip you'd still have a 50" reach! the average good guy has a 34" inseam? who is going to have the better long range weapon? i'd bet on the guy with the wood.

aside from this s/d example there has always been a problem with stick defencive techniques, IMHO. i have recently started teaching myself FMA stickfighting, (unfortunately the closest school is ~1000km away), and have come to the realization(i may be wrong), that you must get in close(trapping range) before he commences the swing (stop hit)! then hit targets of opportunity, eyes,knees,whatever. i believe it's not a matter of the knee being the correct target, or eyes, but you should go in and destroy everything you come in contact with, but get in close and attack.

if you've never practiced with wood, you're missing out on a truely enlightening aspect of the martial arts. it will quickly demonstrate the folly of certain techniques, and how difficult a stick defence really is. i pactice with the assumption that the guy i'd be up against is as good as or better than me (not meant as a boast). it then follows that you must disrupt his flow by getting in close, stop or check the swing, elbows, finger strikes, knees, fists, headbutt, attack,attack,attack and do not let up until he's on the ground and you have the stick. this is all my opinion only, i'm not trying to knock anyones style and i am very open to suggestions or demonstrations of flaws in my logic. that's it, train like a tiger.

 

[Zoran]

IMO, control is the second most important part of weapons defense. First being the block or evasion.

The importance on controlling a club attack may not be as high as other weapons defense. Usually a club needs a certain amount of distance for it to generate decent power or kinetic energy (unless the person is trained to use a club in tight quarters). So making sure that you jam in will help a great deal on club defense.

While taking control, what should follow immediately is an attack on a vital target. Preferably a strike to the eyes or throat. Kicks are okay only if you are using it as an extension to closing the distance to get to one of those vitals.

If we start talking about knife or handgun defense, control becomes much more important as neither weapon needs a great deal of distance or kinetic energy to be effective.

 

[MJS]

IMO, control is the second most important part of weapons defense. First being the block or evasion.

True. I guess when I was talking about the control, I was in a way, combining the block with the control.

The importance on controlling a club attack may not be as high as other weapons defense. Usually a club needs a certain amount of distance for it to generate decent power or kinetic energy (unless the person is trained to use a club in tight quarters). So making sure that you jam in will help a great deal on club defense.

While taking control, what should follow immediately is an attack on a vital target. Preferably a strike to the eyes or throat. Kicks are okay only if you are using it as an extension to closing the distance to get to one of those vitals.

Agreed! When dealing with a club, it should be stopped no later than half way. Anything further than that, you're putting yourself closer to the tip of the stick, where the most power is going to be.

If we start talking about knife or handgun defense, control becomes much more important as neither weapon needs a great deal of distance or kinetic energy to be effective.

Agreed again. Especially with the knife, you'll want to gain that control ASAP.

Mike

 

[MJS]

hhmmmm, very interesting topic. what is the reality of the situation? you have a 30" stick at the end of a 25" arm! taking in to account the grip you'd still have a 50" reach! the average good guy has a 34" inseam? who is going to have the better long range weapon? i'd bet on the guy with the wood.

Good points. The stick is dangerous enough, but in the hands of someone who can use it.....the danger level just rose greatly.

aside from this s/d example there has always been a problem with stick defencive techniques, IMHO. i have recently started teaching myself FMA stickfighting, (unfortunately the closest school is ~1000km away), and have come to the realization(i may be wrong), that you must get in close(trapping range) before he commences the swing (stop hit)! then hit targets of opportunity, eyes,knees,whatever. i believe it's not a matter of the knee being the correct target, or eyes, but you should go in and destroy everything you come in contact with, but get in close and attack.

First off, congrats. on your entering into the FMA world!!! Its truly an excellent art, and IMO, I havent seen any other martial art that addresses the stick and knife like the Filipinos do!! You are correct when you mentioned stopping the swing as soon as you can. The most power is at the tip. As for the targets....correct again. That hand is the first thing coming at you, so why not take advantage of destroying it!!! I only said the knee was a better target, due to the fact, that you'll stand a better chance of hurting the guy by taking his knee, rather than kicking him in the stomach.

if you've never practiced with wood, you're missing out on a truely enlightening aspect of the martial arts. it will quickly demonstrate the folly of certain techniques, and how difficult a stick defence really is. i pactice with the assumption that the guy i'd be up against is as good as or better than me (not meant as a boast). it then follows that you must disrupt his flow by getting in close, stop or check the swing, elbows, finger strikes, knees, fists, headbutt, attack,attack,attack and do not let up until he's on the ground and you have the stick. this is all my opinion only, i'm not trying to knock anyones style and i am very open to suggestions or demonstrations of flaws in my logic. that's it, train like a tiger.

As I said before..the FMA are AWESOME!!! So much to learn and everything blends together very well. You are definately on the right path with your thinking!!! :asian: You're definately studying a VERY good art!!

Mike

 

[Thesemindz]

Thesemindz- Here are a few techs. where control is gained.

Evading the Storm
Calming the Storm
Obstructing the Storm
Defying the Storm

In all of those, a check/method of control is used. In Checking the Storm, the hands are up as a check for the return swing of the club. The tech. in the magazine had the defender side stepping and kicking. No check/method of control was exercised.

Mike

That's why I said we do some club defenses without controlling portions. I see Checking the Storm as a less preferrable, but possibly necessary, club defense option.


-Rob

 

[MichiganTKD]

Better to kepp him at a distance with kicking than to get into a wrestling match with a guy holding a knife or club! I'm not talking about a Van Damme movie, I'm talking about using my longest weapons to keep him from contacting me. You think Tae Kwon Do wouldn't work in these situations? More to the point, you think BJJ or grappling is the best method? Why in the world would I grapple with an armed assailant?
Using basic and to-the-point TKD technique is just as effective at keeping someone away as anything else. I'm not talking about scoring points, I'm talking about using power and direct contact.
BTW, I've known guys who used TKD in these situations and they came out just fine.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Two points I would like to make here:

1. Unless the attacker catches me by surprise and I have to block with my arms or hands to keep from getting hit, I would much rather keep him at the distance of my longest extremities-my feet-rather than allow him to break into my space so that I can attempt to control his weapon with my hands. Damn right I'm going to stop him with kicking technique before I allow him to get that close. My first reaction is to maintain distance or sidestep. My second reaction is to break his ribs with a side kick.

2. I get the feeling that the TKD students demonstrating in the magazine are probably sport oriented, and are trying to show "real life" application of sport footwork and sport kicking. Unfortunately, if you primarily practice sport style, you may know the physical technique but your power and mindset will be totally different than a traditionalist who does practice to defend himself.

I can show and teach sport style, but I primarily practice and teach TKD technique to make power and allow you to defend yourself.

And as a person who trains weapons and kicks, I offer this to you. What if the attacker pulls the strike and hits your shin or ankle?

The idea of controlling the weapon is such that this allows you to more readily attack the bad guy.

I agree that it is nsot always manditory to contol the weapon. I just think your odds increase if you do.
:asian:

 

[MichiganTKD]

Additionally, our GM practiced TKD in Korea at a time when gang warfare was rampant. He had to use TKD often to defend against attackers, unarmed and armed. You can't tell me it doesn't work.