Close-range options for TKD

[zDom]

The question of whether TKD is effective at close range came up in another thread.

One of things I did personally during my training in TKD was train specifically for extremely close range — at or nearly chest to chest with opponent.

For one, nearly ALL striking opponents, I find, freak out when I am this close. Something about personal space is probably part of it. But also insecurity about not knowing what to do to someone that close.

I, on the other hand, trained myself to be very comfortable at close range.

Here are a couple of techniques I have founed to be very effective at very close range:

• upset punch: this punch starts palm down at the hip, then torques over to a palm-up position at the end of the strike (opposite of your typical reverse punch).

Elbow stays in tight, should remain touching your side.

Using the hip motion, this can be a VERY powerful technique despite its short movement. It is also a VERY very strong wrist position. The heavy bag in our dojang is extremely hard - lots of sand in the bag, and the bottom of the bag is almost like a rock due to settling. I can smoke the bottom of the bag with this technique full power.

Direction of movement is often a little upward.

Target is typically floating ribs, but can be solar plexus or even thrown high section when it becomes an uppercut but with the TKD "snap" at the end of the technique which adds power.

• Hook kick to the back of the head. Very fun. Their eyes usually bug out because the technique surprises them.

• Axes kicks and/or crescent kicks. These kicks are MEANT to be thrown from close quarters, especially the crescent kicks.

• "step away" backside kick. Suppose you are starting so close to the opponent your left shoulder is actually touching them (you can actually practice this on a heavy bag starting with shoulder touching bag).

Step away with left foot, turning clockwise*— a fairly large step — to create some distance. Immediately look over your right shoulder and fire a right back kick.

• jump away backside kick. A backside kick, but instead of jumping UP and jump backside kicking, jump up and AWAY from target to create some distrance.

These are just a few very effective techniques that I have found work great over the years (given you train them and become comfortable at fighting in close quarters).


Another fun thing to do with close ranges is: hit them with some upset punches or crescent kicks, then as they back up to get back to their comfort zone, step out into a front stance to smoke them with a reverse punch, immediately followed by a front kick.

If you time it right, you can give hit them with two free techniques as they back away

 

[Touch Of Death]

You will find the closer you get the more latteral affect your liniar strikes have.
Sean

 

[Xue Sheng]

It has been years but as part of my training in JKD with Jae Hun Kim we did work on close range fighting techniques

 

[exile]

Mostly I train close-range. This sort of thing: Turn 90º to the oppo as you move to his inside out of the way of his punch—that's almost certainly what you can expect from him—using an upper block motion of the forearm on the side you've turned awayto force his (now off-target) punching arm up and away, while using an `inward block'-ing motion of the close-side fist to deliver a very high impact strike to the upper part of their punching arm just below the shoulder, and almost simultaneously a quick hard elbow strike, with the same arm, to the face. Finish off using a knifehand strike off the same arm to the side of the attacker's neck or throat. It's very fast, it works with the instictive response, and if delivered right it will damage the attacker as much as you judge you need it to.

There are many techs like this available in TKD, and the nice part is, they come right out the hyungs, if you think of the hyung movements the right way...

 

[Adept]

Personally, I like to clinch them and shake them up with knees and elbows, applying a throw or joint lock if it presents itself.

• Hook kick to the back of the head. Very fun. Their eyes usually bug out because the technique surprises them.

• Axes kicks and/or crescent kicks. These kicks are MEANT to be thrown from close quarters, especially the crescent kicks.

• "step away" backside kick. Suppose you are starting so close to the opponent your left shoulder is actually touching them (you can actually practice this on a heavy bag starting with shoulder touching bag).

Step away with left foot, turning clockwise*— a fairly large step — to create some distance. Immediately look over your right shoulder and fire a right back kick.

• jump away backside kick. A backside kick, but instead of jumping UP and jump backside kicking, jump up and AWAY from target to create some distrance.

Personally, I think kicking above the waist/thigh at this range is utter madness, especially in a self defence situation.

 

[zDom]

Personally, I like to clinch them and shake them up with knees and elbows, applying a throw or joint lock if it presents itself.

I should have been more specific:

these are (fun) things to do in sparring situations, although some (upset punch, step away/jump back kick) would also translate well to self defense.

In a self defense situation, fwiw, I personally have many other options, being a hapkido practitioner. As you pointed out, throws and locks, for instance.

But that is off topic material: this thread specifically is for suggesting TAEKWONDO options for close-ranged fighting.

Personally, I think kicking above the waist/thigh at this range is utter madness, especially in a self defence situation.

THIS .... IS .... SPARTA!!!

(couldn't resist)

But seriously,

While you think kicking above the waist is utter madness — and it probably would be, for YOU — for me high kicking is perfectly viable.

It probably wouldn't be my FIRST technique, but I certainly wouldn't rule out a crescent or axe kick as a finishing technique after I stun them with a elbow or punch.

Taking this back on-topic for a moment, an upward heel kick to the chin is a close range technique that is very effective for close range (or do other TKD schools even practice this kick? MSK might have just "borrowed" this kick from MSK HKD ...)

For ME an extended clinch would be utter madness. It isn't something I train regularly and am comfortable with. If I am going to grab their neck or head, I will be THROWING them with their neck or head, not "clinching" and throwing knees — probably just a single knee before releasing for something else (as in Chung Moo, described below).

I generally don't use my knees as weapons. That's a personal preference: the patellas is relatively fragile, when compared to the calcaneous, and the top of the knee is muscle, not bone.

There are are knee strikes I've trained, as they ARE included in poomsea (I particularly like the double palm strike glancing strike to cheek bones, followed by a clinch grab followed by a knee strike to the face from Chung Moo) but they aren't my strikes of choice, generally speaking.

 

[Xue Sheng]

It has been years but as part of my training in JKD with Jae Hun Kim we did work on close range fighting techniques

Not that I want to quote myself but I see I made a bone head error

Correction, Sorry not JKD that would be very wrong, and I never trained JKD.

I meant TKD, sorry about that.

 

[zDom]

Not that I want to quote myself but I see I made a bone head error

Correction, Sorry not JKD that would be very wrong, and I never trained JKD.

I meant TKD, sorry about that.

What kind of stuff did you guys work on at close range?

 

[Xue Sheng]

What kind of stuff did you guys work on at close range?

You do realize you are asking me to remember something from over 20 years ago.

If my old and feeble mind remembers we stood about a foot apart and did work on a lot of hand strikes but they were not straight they tended to be more circular in order to give you a bit more momentum and power in the punch. As well as punches closer to what a boxer might do. And there were a couple of take downs too, again if my old brain is working.

I also agree that an axe kick is a close range kick but I never liked it. At least to me it felt as if I was way to close to be that unstable. But I still think it was a pretty cool kick.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I should have been more specific:

these are (fun) things to do in sparring situations, although some (upset punch, step away/jump back kick) would also translate well to self defense.

In a self defense situation, fwiw, I personally have many other options, being a hapkido practitioner. As you pointed out, throws and locks, for instance.

But that is off topic material: this thread specifically is for suggesting TAEKWONDO options for close-ranged fighting.




THIS .... IS .... SPARTA!!!

(couldn't resist)

But seriously,

While you think kicking above the waist is utter madness — and it probably would be, for YOU — for me high kicking is perfectly viable.

It probably wouldn't be my FIRST technique, but I certainly wouldn't rule out a crescent or axe kick as a finishing technique after I stun them with a elbow or punch.

Taking this back on-topic for a moment, an upward heel kick to the chin is a close range technique that is very effective for close range (or do other TKD schools even practice this kick? MSK might have just "borrowed" this kick from MSK HKD ...)

For ME an extended clinch would be utter madness. It isn't something I train regularly and am comfortable with. If I am going to grab their neck or head, I will be THROWING them with their neck or head, not "clinching" and throwing knees — probably just a single knee before releasing for something else (as in Chung Moo, described below).

I generally don't use my knees as weapons. That's a personal preference: the patellas is relatively fragile, when compared to the calcaneous, and the top of the knee is muscle, not bone.

There are are knee strikes I've trained, as they ARE included in poomsea (I particularly like the double palm strike glancing strike to cheek bones, followed by a clinch grab followed by a knee strike to the face from Chung Moo) but they aren't my strikes of choice, generally speaking.

If nothing else I enjoy reading this point of view. I will say this is not the kind of close fighting we are taliking about. Get closer!
Sean

 

[bluemtn]

The question of whether TKD is effective at close range came up in another thread.

One of things I did personally during my training in TKD was train specifically for extremely close range — at or nearly chest to chest with opponent.

For one, nearly ALL striking opponents, I find, freak out when I am this close. Something about personal space is probably part of it. But also insecurity about not knowing what to do to someone that close.

I, on the other hand, trained myself to be very comfortable at close range.

One of my teachers does that too. He came up with drills similar to that, which include trapping their hand and pulling them into your strike, and also some take- downs (obviously not something you'd do in tournament sparring, but still...)

It has been years but as part of my training in JKD with Jae Hun Kim we did work on close range fighting techniques

I was about to ask you about that one...

 

[Xue Sheng]

I was about to ask you about that one...

a senior moment

 

[Flying Crane]

• upset punch: this punch starts palm down at the hip, then torques over to a palm-up position at the end of the strike (opposite of your typical reverse punch).

Elbow stays in tight, should remain touching your side.

Using the hip motion, this can be a VERY powerful technique despite its short movement. It is also a VERY very strong wrist position. The heavy bag in our dojang is extremely hard - lots of sand in the bag, and the bottom of the bag is almost like a rock due to settling. I can smoke the bottom of the bag with this technique full power.

Direction of movement is often a little upward.

Target is typically floating ribs, but can be solar plexus or even thrown high section when it becomes an uppercut but with the TKD "snap" at the end of the technique which adds power.

We use this as well in Tracy Kenpo. It's one that I like.

 

[Last Fearner]

I will say this is not the kind of close fighting we are taliking about. Get closer!
Sean

As Groucho Marx said, "If I got any closer, I'd be standing behind you!"

Although I do practice techniques from every range, every angle, and every position possible, my primary objective is to keep my opponent from getting closer. It is very dangerous for them to try. If they move in slow, they make an easy target. If they rush in fast, they might run into something which compounds the force of their onslaught to my strike, or my evasion and throw.

If they make it in-close, my second objective is to either strike fast, strike hard, and regain distance (likely ending the fight with one or two strikes), or use joint locks, pressure points, or throws to spoil their attack. Then I resume my distancing and kicking techniques.

It's kind of like fighting a donkey and a kangaroo that can kick your lights out, and at the same time fight a tiger that can take you down with one swipe, a boa constrictor that can squeeze the life out of you, a porcupine that you wouldn't dare grab, a wolverine that you wouldn't want to even get near, and a scorpion that can nail you with a deadly stinger from out of nowhere. I combine a little of each of these skills so that an attacker is not safe at any range, and never knows what is coming at them next. Choosing from Hapkido, Hoshinsul, Subak, Taekyon, and Yudo..... this is Taekwondo!

It probably wouldn't be my FIRST technique, but I certainly wouldn't rule out a crescent or axe kick as a finishing technique after I stun them with a elbow or punch.

This is exactly right, zDoom! For those who don't understand the use of kicking (especially high kicks in real-life self defense) consider the strategy in a Boxing match. Most any boxer knows how to land the 'power punch.' A left hook, a right cross, or an upper-cut to the chin. However, not many boxers lead off with these techniques, nor use them more than 5% of their strikes during a round.

The idea is to jab, punch, quick hook or fast upper-cut with the intention of dazing the opponent, knocking them back on their heels, stunned, reeling, seeing stars, then finish them with the power hit. You see your opponent vulnerable, then you make a decision as to what major punch you have in your arsenal that can take this person out, and finish the fight. Sometimes one of these punches is not strong enough, and you have to hit them two or three times before they go down.

Taekwondo kicks to the head are the power shots that finish the fight. You don't typically stand face-to-face with an alert opponent, and try to kick them in the head. In most cases, you are going kick them in the knee or groin, punch their body and face, back-fist, knife-strike, ridge-hand, elbow, etc. until you see your opponent in that 'vulnerable' dazed condition that it is clear it will take two to three seconds for them to shake it off and recover. In that split second, one kick to the head and the fight is over! There are other options, but when the opportunity presents itself, and a skilled kicker determines it is safe to proceed, it only takes a fraction of a second to drop your opponent and end the fight.

At close range, I use any hand, elbow, knee, or head-butt strike, or low kick that I can, but I will only kick high (whether in close or far away) if I have already stunned my attacker. My main objective in-close is to prevent damage to my vitals, inflict damage to my opponent's vitals, and distance myself for safety, and so that I can use the power of my kicks. I am not, in any way, vulnerable or helpless when in-close, but if my opponent thinks I am, then all the better for me. :ultracool

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Great thread, zDom!

Personally, I see no reason why TKD can't be effective at close range. Part of the reason so many erroneously think it is is because sport competitions involving TKD emphasize longer range kicks with the hands often kept down (suicide against a boxer). One thing I did when I was studying TKD formally was to go through each form slowly and work the hand techniques at close range with a friend until I could actually use the techniques in the form in real life - as compared to throwing most of it out the window and taking my hand skills strictly from point sparring.

When I later joined a Kenpo school, one of the instructors told me that I had very good hand techniques for a TKD stylist. Actually, most traditional TKD folks DO have good hand techniques and are not limited to kicking range.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

This is exactly right, zDoom! For those who don't understand the use of kicking (especially high kicks in real-life self defense) consider the strategy in a Boxing match. Most any boxer knows how to land the 'power punch.' A left hook, a right cross, or an upper-cut to the chin. However, not many boxers lead off with these techniques, nor use them more than 5% of their strikes during a round.

The idea is to jab, punch, quick hook or fast upper-cut with the intention of dazing the opponent, knocking them back on their heels, stunned, reeling, seeing stars, then finish them with the power hit. You see your opponent vulnerable, then you make a decision as to what major punch you have in your arsenal that can take this person out, and finish the fight. Sometimes one of these punches is not strong enough, and you have to hit them two or three times before they go down.

Taekwondo kicks to the head are the power shots that finish the fight. You don't typically stand face-to-face with an alert opponent, and try to kick them in the head. In most cases, you are going kick them in the knee or groin, punch their body and face, back-fist, knife-strike, ridge-hand, elbow, etc. until you see your opponent in that 'vulnerable' dazed condition that it is clear it will take two to three seconds for them to shake it off and recover. In that split second, one kick to the head and the fight is over! There are other options, but when the opportunity presents itself, and a skilled kicker determines it is safe to proceed, it only takes a fraction of a second to drop your opponent and end the fight.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

That is so true and such a great point! Unfortunately, many TKD folks in recent years have taken the gravy to mean the whole art. In other words, folks are now leading with finishing moves instead of setting them up or reserving them for later. I sparred a TKD friend years ago who was also studying kickboxing (we had been in the same boxing class at the university) and he did awesome handwork - then out of the blue, nailed me with a jump spinning sidekick. Perfect opening, perfect setup. What a lot of TKD bashers will do is take a clip of some TKD guy leading off with one of these techniques and getting instantly pounded and then say - see! TKD doesn't work.

 

[Adept]

My thoughts on high kicks in a real-life situation:

Appropriate times to be kicking to someones head are far fewer than appropriate times to be striking someones head with another tool.

For example:

A head high kick takes longer to reach it's target than the equivalent hand technique. This gives your opponent more reaction time.

A head high kick places you in a vulnerable position, standing on one leg within 'shoot' range of your opponent.

A head high kick often requires some kind of twist of the grounded foot, which increases the risk of falling or slipping.

A head high kick has a slower recovery time, and until the kicking foot is planted on the ground your balance and mobility is limited.

A effective head high kick, for most people, requires warming up and loose pants.

A head high kick limits the ability to move and strike simultaneously, unlike handstrikes.

Having said all that, I won't say you should never kick someone in the head.

Simply that it is rarely the best option and should always be a fail-safe strike where even if it goes pear shaped, you don't end up eating asphalt.

 

[exile]

My thoughts on high kicks in a real-life situation:

Appropriate times to be kicking to someones head are far fewer than appropriate times to be striking someones head with another tool.

For example:

A head high kick takes longer to reach it's target than the equivalent hand technique. This gives your opponent more reaction time.

A head high kick places you in a vulnerable position, standing on one leg within 'shoot' range of your opponent.

A head high kick often requires some kind of twist of the grounded foot, which increases the risk of falling or slipping.

A head high kick has a slower recovery time, and until the kicking foot is planted on the ground your balance and mobility is limited.

A effective head high kick, for most people, requires warming up and loose pants.

A head high kick limits the ability to move and strike simultaneously, unlike handstrikes.

Having said all that, I won't say you should never kick someone in the head.

Simply that it is rarely the best option and should always be a fail-safe strike where even if it goes pear shaped, you don't end up eating asphalt.

Yeah, this is basically my own personal list of reservations about high kicks too. I suspect there are a few folks out there who've trained high kicks so that at least some of these weak points are minimized (zDom, for one!) but for me they just wouldn't be practical as a combat tool. But they're a great training aid, especially for balance.

 

[matt.m]

Let us not forget the value of twist or front upraising kick. Two others that come readily to mind are stomp and inverted twist.