clinch in a streetfight

[cfr]

Sorry if this has already been covered. It seems like we often read about "would you go to the ground in a streetfight". Everone has their reasons for and against. But what about getting in the clinch in a streetfight? Would you do it purposely? Do you see a big value in clinch training for street defense?

 

[Touch Of Death]

It beats repeated blows to the face.

 

[Cthulhu]

I would not seek a clinch, but I would like to be able to respond appropriately if a clinch happened in a fight.

Cthulhu

 

[J-kid]

Depends what type of clinch and what ablities/skills you posses from the clinch.

For instince if i have the MT clinch i could drop knees to the face.
Or if i have a collar tie clinch(wrestling) i would look for a take down and control there arms.

There are a few diffrent clinchs that could happen and you should make sure you are ready for any.

 

[MJS]

Definately use it! Its one of the ranges of combat and you can take advantage of your close in strikes....knees, elbows, gouges, etc. Like Jkid also said, if you can get the MT clinch, pounding them with knees is very effective.

Considering I'd rather not stand and box with someone, trying for the clinch is something that I'd try!

Mike

 

[Zepp]

It would depend on the size of my opponent compared to myself. If the other guy is larger than you, and has some clue what he's doing, you could just be setting yourself up to be taken down.

 

[cfr]

Originally posted by Zepp
It would depend on the size of my opponent compared to myself. If the other guy is larger than you, and has some clue what he's doing, you could just be setting yourself up to be taken down.

Could you please elaborate on this? I dont have much clinch experience so Im interested in opinions from both schools of thought.

 

[Zepp]

I don't have a tremendous amount of experience clinching either, but here's what I know from intuition and a little bit of experience:

If you're in a clinch, your options for striking are limited. You're basically able to hit weakly with your elbows and feet, and more strongly with your knees. It's basically a grappling fight, with neither person in an advantaged position. In this case, the stronger opponent has an advantage in controlling the weaker one. If he has any kind of grappling skills, it will be much easier for the stronger person to gain an advantaged position, probably by performing some kind of take down on the weaker, smaller opponent.

If you think I'm wrong, please let me know how.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Zepp
I don't have a tremendous amount of experience clinching either, but here's what I know from intuition and a little bit of experience:

If you're in a clinch, your options for striking are limited. You're basically able to hit weakly with your elbows and feet, and more strongly with your knees.

How weak are you talking? While you wont be able to get as much power in the elbow as say a punch, where you can turn your hips, keep in mind that your elbows are close range weapons anyway. You'd be surprised how much power you can generate.

It's basically a grappling fight, with neither person in an advantaged position.

Depends on the type of clinch. Working from this position is an art in itself. If you are able to control the head, as in the MT style clinch, you are definately in the advantageous position.

In this case, the stronger opponent has an advantage in controlling the weaker one. If he has any kind of grappling skills, it will be much easier for the stronger person to gain an advantaged position, probably by performing some kind of take down on the weaker, smaller opponent.

IMO, it all comes down to tech. Sure size and strength will play a part, but what really matters is the tech. Look at Rickson Gracie. He's one of the best fighters in the family. I would say his tech. is right up there!

Mike

 

[Zepp]

Originally posted by MJS
IMO, it all comes down to tech. Sure size and strength will play a part, but what really matters is the tech. Look at Rickson Gracie. He's one of the best fighters in the family. I would say his tech. is right up there!

Very true. So I guess we can agree that the answer on whether or not to clinch really depends on what you know how to do, and how well you can do it.

 

[chaosomega]

I've been taught that the preferable places to be are in (or just outside) kicking range or right up close, clinching with knees & elbows (not to mention hooks, uppercuts & a little dirty boxing). You don't want to stand and trade with someone, that is where mistakes are made. If you think you're good enough though... go ahead!

 

[pknox]

As was pointed out before, clinching is the range where you have access to almost all of your weapons, so it's not a bad place to be, per se. Unless you are one heck of a striker, you will probably have to go into this range to end the conflict anyway. One qualifier though, and it's a big one - in a "streetfight", you must always assume that the opponent is armed. If the guy has a knife, I personally would rather be where I could see it. If you are in the clinch, you don't always have the greatest visibility of where your opponent's hands are - it is quite possible for someone to draw a blade, and you'd never see it coming. If you get stuck through the back or sides of the ribs, you are in a world of trouble.

 

[ryanhall]

Would you do it purposely? Do you see a big value in clinch training for street defense?

It depends. Yes.

Most real fights start at close quarters, so a knowledge of the clinch is imperative. If you can control the clinch, you can control the fight. As far as weapons go, they are always a danger (especially up close), and you have to have a good tactile sense in order to keep track of the movement of the other guy. Ideally, you want to jam the weapon as the assailant is trying to draw it--obviously doesn't always work.

It's a range that you should be familiar with, because, as pknox stated, you will probably end up there. People taking a beating don't hang out in punching range, they disengage or try to grab you. Since you probably won't get a KO right off the bat unless you hit just right, the clinch is a very common place to find yourself in. If you'll notice, most fights that aren't ended in the first few blows end up in a standup wrestling match that is sometimes followed by one or both of the participants going to the ground.

One thing to remember is that most people are very ignorant of the clinch. In terms of layman's combat, punching range is the most comfortable (almost everybody can hit with their fists to a certain degree, and even if they don't do it well, they are still most comfortable there). Landing knees, elbows, and headbutts can end a fight in short order, as can shredding. Your most useful weapons are in the close quarters area, so make use of them.

While you wont be able to get as much power in the elbow as say a punch

Not sure I agree here. When you elbow, you can torque your whole body into the shot, you are hitting with a much harder surface than you would be when you punch, your target is much less important (you're not going to break your elbow on somebody's cheekbone), and you will probably get a cleaner shot in (if you're in range to elbow, it's hard to 'block' them.

It's basically a grappling fight, with neither person in an advantaged position.

Definitely incorrect. There are definitely advantageous positions in the clinch. A Thai neck tie is one, double underhooks is another. The former allows you to strike with a lot of control, but the latter can allow for a takedown if the situation does not permit you to knee the hell out of whomever you're fighting. Grabbing clothing can make a difference, but if you train in a jacket and jeans, you should have an understanding of how the situations changes--doesn't change much, as the positions of advantage are still the same.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by chaosomega
I've been taught that the preferable places to be are in (or just outside) kicking range or right up close, clinching with knees & elbows (not to mention hooks, uppercuts & a little dirty boxing). You don't want to stand and trade with someone, that is where mistakes are made. If you think you're good enough though... go ahead!

My thoughts exactly! I'm not the worlds greatest puncher, so as for myself, I prefer to clinch.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ryanhall

Not sure I agree here. When you elbow, you can torque your whole body into the shot, you are hitting with a much harder surface than you would be when you punch, your target is much less important (you're not going to break your elbow on somebody's cheekbone), and you will probably get a cleaner shot in (if you're in range to elbow, it's hard to 'block' them.

I think you were misunderstanding what I was saying. If you are throwing a cross, you can put you body into it by turning. Of course the same can be done with the elbow. If you are in a clinch position, with the other person grabbing you, sure you can still throw the elbow and yes you'll get some results, but you might not be able to get as much tourqe due to the fact that someone else is holding you.

Mike

 

[ryanhall]

Mike,
I misunderstood what you were saying. We're on the same page now. Still, despite the fact that you can't get all of your body in to a conventional elbow strike in the clinch, you can still get enough in to cause a knockout or at the least, set up a good followup.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by ryanhall
Mike,
I misunderstood what you were saying. We're on the same page now. Still, despite the fact that you can't get all of your body in to a conventional elbow strike in the clinch, you can still get enough in to cause a knockout or at the least, set up a good followup.

Agreed!:asian:

Mike

 

[nonono90]

My ground skills suck. So in a self defense situation I doubt I would try to take the fight to the ground. Even if I had better skills I would still be hesitant to do so. Since the majority of self defense situations that occur on the street are in a social setting often times the fight is not 1 on 1. It may begin that way but when straddling your opponent, pummeling him with shots to the head, choking, or puting him in an arm bar, you are impairing you ability to respond to other attacks. Not only is your mobility diminished, but you vision is limited. If the guys friend decides to attack a real danger exists of being caught off guard. One good kick to the head can easily end a fight. In my opinion if going to the ground in a fight where other people are around, I would try and execute the intended move then return to my feet. This way if the oppenent trys to get up kicks can be placed to vital areas, and then the ability to respond to other possible threats, his friends is maintained.

What do you think?

 

[loki09789]

I agree about the ground fighting thing. My idea is to distinguish between the submission joint control training and the joint destruction training. In reality, as a civilian, I would probably be looking for joint destruction during ground fighting/grappling instead of the classic pain inducing "lever" of UFC fighting fame.

Clinching may happen whether you want it to or not, response will depend on what you are trained to do in close. Some will punch, some will tie up and knee, others will look for the entry to grapple. I think limb/joint destruction is the best way for me because the Kenpo/FMA background primarily focuses on mechanical disfunction as a goal. Pain is a residual product of taking an opponents ability to function away.

If you leave a finger out there by itself, I will try and break it. If it is an elbow or knee, I will try and break it. These things will make it very hard for the bad guy to keep fighting me effectively.
Paul Martin

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by nonono90
Since the majority of self defense situations that occur on the street are in a social setting often times the fight is not 1 on 1. It may begin that way but when straddling your opponent, pummeling him with shots to the head, choking, or puting him in an arm bar, you are impairing you ability to respond to other attacks.

In the national crime statistics, for assaults from strangers, 70% had a single attacker. It went down drastically to 12% for 2 attackers and 5% for three.

For assaults from non-strangers, 91% were from a single attacker, 4% for 2 attackers.

So, while multiple attacker scenarios do exist, they are far from the norm.

Originally posted by nonono90
What do you think?

The situation you described is a fight and not a self-defense scenario. I would say that if I were attacked, I would try to get away as quickly as possible. I train on the ground to get a dominant position where I can minimize him as a threat and allow me to get away, not to just get an arm-bar or a choke. There are very few arm bars or chokes that I would attempt in a real self-defense scenario because I might lose the dominant position if something goes wrong.

If it were a friend and this were a true fight, I would probably go to the ground and try to immobolize him, rather than mount and beat him to a bloody pulp.

WhiteBirch