Classical support for High Kicks

[JT_the_Ninja]

Has anyone ever actually figured out just how high you'd have to jump in order to knock an enemy off a reasonable-sized horse? I don't know what the war horses of ancient Korea looked like, but I'm pretty sure they weren't Siberian ponies; they were probably full-size mounts, 15 or 16 hands maybe? And those guys were using saddles and stirrups, as I recall. So you'd have to jump high enough to hit the rider above his center of mass (obviously a kick to the hips in a seated configuration is probably not gonna knock him off)... that means you're having to deliver that kick the full height of the horse's back plus another foot or so. And do so while the guy is cantering past you 10-15 mph...

Has anyone ever seen a single piece of primary documentation for this practice? I'm having a very hard time picturing it!

Agreed, it'd be difficult, but then again, they wouldn't be Clydesdales, either. I'm not saying I believe it 100 percent.

Also, though, consider that this technique would most certainly not be used while the horse was "cantering past you 10-15 mph," taking into account the move right before is a high block. In palche so, it makes sense that you might be redirecting a spear and then kicking (the horse, maybe?).
In palche deh, though, I think it's pretty obvious that you're grabbing your opponent's arm and rearranging his face with your foot.

But what you're describing sounds very much like a sparring context, not an actual street attack/defense. Faking is probably not the best thing to do as a defensive maneuver in a real fight, because you can't count on the untrained attacker to be carefully assessing your moves and holding back, adjusting and (mis)calculating... that's much more what happens in sparring, I'd say. I don't have a huge amount of experience with violent conflict, but I've had some, and things move way too fast and are too chaotic. If kata are a guide to fighting tactics for real street defense against an untrained aggessor, I myself would probably take the moves they offer as literal, effective strikes.

The interpretations I've seen for kicks in kata that make the most sense to me are kicks in situation where you've established a certain degree of control over the attacker already and so are minimizing the risks involved in the kick. Let's assume that there really are high kick techs the kata record (as vs. later practitioners progressively raising lower kicks to higher ones as the latter became more valued for reasons of spectacle). What conditions would allow you kick high relatively safely while minimizing the chances of your attacker using your kick as an opening to unbalance or close the distance on you to your disadvantage?

It is a human reaction to guard the front, especially the face, when you see an attack coming at you. It is also a male reaction to guard low when you see a kick coming in at waist level or below. It's not that hard to imagine taking advantage of that.

As always, nice vid picks, upnorthkyosa.

 

[exile]

It is a human reaction to guard the front, especially the face, when you see an attack coming at you.

True. On the other hand, only a relatively small movement is necessary to get the head out of the way, and then the defender's momentum is still moving in the direction of the kick, while the attacker, if left free to move, can come in close. That's why I've been assuming that if there are such high kicks, they involve an at least partially controlled attacker, as in the scenario UpN suggested...

 

[DavidCC]

Please remind me again when these kata were developed... were horses still widely used by the military at that time?

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the things that I would like to accomplish with this thread is to put back into perspective the whole concept of kicking high when it comes to self defense. It does have its place, but its place has limitations. Kicking is risky business and kicking high can be very risky indeed. And this is why the parameters for throwing a high kick have to be so specific. The bottom line is that you have to be in a situation where the risk is minimized and the benefits maximized...and this is no different really then any other martial arts technique.

My hope is that by looking at the forms, we can come to a better understanding of when, where, and how high kicks can be appropriate for self defense.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

True. On the other hand, only a relatively small movement is necessary to get the head out of the way, and then the defender's momentum is still moving in the direction of the kick, while the attacker, if left free to move, can come in close. That's why I've been assuming that if there are such high kicks, they involve an at least partially controlled attacker, as in the scenario UpN suggested...

Exactly. And it's not even as much of an adjustment to push through to hit the head anyway, in that situation. Given that all this happens in less than a second, though, so your average Joe on the street doesn't have much time to react and counter. In situation 1, where the low kick is the fake, his hands would probably still be down, and he'd be hunched forward, into the kick, and in situation 2, where the high kick is the fake, he moves his head to avoid the high (fake) kick, and he still gets it in the gut/solar plexus...so he ducks over in pain and gets another attack, this time to the head *evil grin*

The keys to using high kicks in self-defense are (a) speed, (b) accuracy, and (c) discrimination to know when it's going to be possible. If you can react quickly enough and deliver a high kick to the chin while your opponent is coming at you (avoiding the attacking limb thrown), the fight's pretty much over, sparring, street fighting, whatever. You throw the momentum in your direction, even if you don't knock your attacker out right then and there, so you can follow up with whatever you want while he's recovering.

I'm sure at least a few of you here have heard the back wheel kick (dwi dul ryo chagi) referred to as the "all-purpose counter" or something similar. It's true, with some reservations. You perfect that technique, and so long as you see your opponent coming, it's possible to smack him in the head before he can even touch you with whatever he had planned. I say "with some reservations" because even idiots catch on eventually, and because it still requires a lot of practice.