Chuck Norris and TKD

[Earl Weiss]

So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable.

Your premise is faulty. First and foremost the name TK-D was not adopted until 1955 and then it was developed in the 29th infantry division of course populated by TSD practitioners like Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo. So., exactly how many TKD Schools (Not TSD) do you think there were in the 1950's?

What schools were teaching TKD outside Korea in the 1950's ? Where and by whom? Have you spoken to any of these TSD or TKD instructors from the 1950's or is tis simply something you have concluded from internet snippets?

 

[Earl Weiss]

2:31

Hmm...

Jhoon Rhee was a CDK product. His history was well known. He had a TSD school in Texas and General Choi was at a Military course in Texas and visited him, taught him patterns and persuaded him to switch.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?

When was the last time you saw anything unanimously agreed upon?
The name TKD was chosen and accepted by the schools who were part of the unification movement. Then GM Hwang Kee left the movement with about 1/3 of the MooDukKwan and changed the name to Tang Soo Do. He then changed the name to Soo Bahk Do. So the only TSD schools left are that tiny splinter that left the unification movement and then also split from their founder.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Your premise is faulty. First and foremost the name TK-D was not adopted until 1955 and then it was developed in the 29th infantry division of course populated by TSD practitioners like Nam Tae Hi and Han Cha Kyo. So., exactly how many TKD Schools (Not TSD) do you think there were in the 1950's?

What schools were teaching TKD outside Korea in the 1950's ? Where and by whom? Have you spoken to any of these TSD or TKD instructors from the 1950's or is tis simply something you have concluded from internet snippets?

I never claimed that TKD schools existed outside of Korea in the 50s, but they did exist. Chuck learned TSD in Korea, but whether it was a TKD or TSD labelled school in 1958 would have been irrelevant. The new Korean Chang Hon patterns were still in development, and only a handful existed, without any chronological order to them in terms of belts.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Jhoon Rhee was a CDK product. His history was well known. He had a TSD school in Texas and General Choi was at a Military course in Texas and visited him, taught him patterns and persuaded him to switch.

My point is that he, like Chuck Norris, considers Tang Soo Do to be TaeKwonDo. He did not consider pattern switches big enough to label it a new art.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

When was the last time you saw anything unanimously agreed upon?
The name TKD was chosen and accepted by the schools who were part of the unification movement. Then GM Hwang Kee left the movement with about 1/3 of the MooDukKwan and changed the name to Tang Soo Do. He then changed the name to Soo Bahk Do. So the only TSD schools left are that tiny splinter that left the unification movement and then also split from their founder.

It doesn't matter to me whether they agree to the name unification or not.

Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.

Yes they use different patterns but not all people practise patterns at all, yet still do TKD. So one can't define an art based on patterns.

Which is why Chuck Norris isn't wrong to state that he is a TaeKwonDo product.

For instance, I don't practise any patterns since 3 years back. Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...

 

[Earl Weiss]

I never claimed that TKD schools existed outside of Korea in the 50s, but they did exist.

What you said was " So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable." So, outside of the Oh Do Kwan, who was teaching TKD (not TSD) in Korea from 1955-1959. Who was teaching TKD (Not TSD) outside of Korea and where? This premise presents 2 obstacles. 1. Were there any TKD schools even existing to distinguish; and 2. If any did exist were they recent converts from TSD who were only beginning to make adjustments. Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.

What do you base this on? when the school I attended was still affiliated with a CDK product who changed to TKD we were doing stop point sparring. Not ITF format since around 1974. Maybe TSD has changed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...

Are you related to a former poster who went by the name Acronym?

 

[Earl Weiss]

So one can't define an art based on patterns.

Why? Because you said so? What other technical parameters do you require?

 

[Dirty Dog]

It doesn't matter to me whether they agree to the name unification or not.

Sure. I get it. If it doesn't agree with your view, it doesn't matter.

Tang Soo Do schools have virtually the same sparring as ITF, the same techniques and technical delivery, similiar emphasis, shared lineage, etc.

Not really. Just on the "shared lineage" point, for example. GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught TSD. And what remains of TSD is all from that lineage. The ITF was founded by Gen Choi, who was never a part of the MDK or a student of GM Hwang Kee. Completely different lineage.

Yes they use different patterns but not all people practise patterns at all, yet still do TKD. So one can't define an art based on patterns.

I think we can let an art define itself. I'm quite certain they can do so without your help.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

What do you base this on? when the school I attended was still affiliated with a CDK product who changed to TKD we were doing stop point sparring. Not ITF format since around 1974. Maybe TSD has changed.

I was talking about now regarding sparring.

Btw, speaking of sparring, your claim that the WTFs decision to dispatch face punching had "no basis in history" seems to be incorrect.

Chang Kuen states implicitly that no face punching was part of the original national Korean Karate Championships

I also won the first Korean Tae Soo Do (Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, and Kong Soo Do) heavyweight championship in the 3rd, 4th and 5th degree division in 1963. I was the smallest in the division, but quite fast so the bigger opponents found it hard to hit me. The rules used were similar to those used by the WTF today but we used more hand techniques

Why?

Because it leads to reductio ad absurdum if you do. I am not practising anything, if patterns define an art.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Not really. Just on the "shared lineage" point, for example. GM Hwang Kee founded the Moo Duk Kwan and taught TSD. And what remains of TSD is all from that lineage. The ITF was founded by Gen Choi, who was never a part of the MDK or a student of GM Hwang Kee. Completely different lineage.

General Chois personal lineage is irrelevant since the instructors he recruited for his branch were primarily from Tang Soo Do, and it was his recruits that represented the art technique-wise, not General Choi.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I think we can let an art define itself. I'm quite certain they can do so without your help.

An art without practitioners is an abstraction, not a real "thing".

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Here is modern day TSD sparring/sport. Looks identical to ITF. maybe they copied the ITF format later on. Tang Soo Do obviously didn't use protection originally, but neither did Chois branch.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Do you have a source for your claim that TSD sparring is the same as ITF sparring? HAs it always been so?

A source has been posted. I don't now when they made the switch to continuos sparring and not all branches followed suit. My guess is that it came later.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For instance, I don't practise any patterns since 3 years back. Arguing whether I'm doing TSD or TaeKwonDo at this point would be meaningless seminatics...

Then you are doing neither.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Here is modern day TSD sparring/sport. Looks identical to ITF. maybe they copied the ITF format later on. Tang Soo Do obviously didn't use protection originally, but neither did Chois branch.

I'm guessing you didn't notice the ITF uniforms. Speaks volume about your conclusions and the sources from which the come.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I'm guessing you didn't notice the ITF uniforms. Speaks volume about your conclusions and the sources from which the come.

I'm guessing you didn't notice the word Tang Soo Do Open Championship, meaning TaeKwonDo practitioners were allowed to compete.

Then you are doing neither.

We had a guy join ITF who came from a TaeKwonDo school in Serbia,
headed by an ITF instructor who opened his own place and ditched patterns practise.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

What If I make up my own forms like ATA, Jhoon Rhee, etc and practise those. Am I suddenly doing TaeKwonDo again then?

Or do you not consider those places to be training TaeKwonDo?