Chuck Norris and TKD

[InfiniteLoop]

It was common belief (at least amongst us non-Korean stylists) that TSD and TKD were two distinct styles.

I am korean stylist and that is not shared by me. TaeKwonDo was a name change to Tang Soo Do schools, with replaced katas.

These techniques are 99% identical to the ITF TaeKwonDo branch, with some very, very minor exception (crescent kick with leg straight rather than bent).

If you want to distingush arts from each other based on an innoccious crescent kick difference, be my guest..

 

[InfiniteLoop]

He learned the forms from Gen. Choi.

He trained under Choi for only 3 days... source: 05:04

 

[Earl Weiss]

Not sure what your point is here.... There is no TKD black belt back then who is not traced back to either Karate/Shotokan or Tang So Do, including General Choi who did Shotokan in Japan...

You seem to make a bigger deal out of labels and katas more than Chuck is..

My point is if you call a tale a leg then want to know how many legs a dog has the answer is still "4". Just because you call a tale a leg doesn't make it so. Many TSD practitioners rejected the name TKD. When the popularity / marketability became to hard to resist they co opted the name. Now, I will concede it is a matter of perspective. For some anyone kicking and punching with links to some Korean system can call what they do TKD. For others the name reflects a single system that did not exist prior to 1955 or so. I think to call certain Korean striking arts TKD may in fact be an insult o the founder of the system who rejected the name.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

My point is if you call a tale a leg then want to know how many legs a dog has the answer is still "4". Just because you call a tale a leg doesn't make it so. Many TSD practitioners rejected the name TKD. When the popularity / marketability became to hard to resist they co opted the name. Now, I will concede it is a matter of perspective. For some anyone kicking and punching with links to some Korean system can call what they do TKD. For others the name reflects a single system that did not exist prior to 1955 or so. I think to call certain Korean striking arts TKD may in fact be an insult o the founder of the system who rejected the name.

For someone like Chuck Norris who primarily kicks and punches, and grabs, distinguishing between TSD and TKD makes little sense. If he was a forms competitor it would be another story.

If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Here in the first minutes of the interview Chuck calls his training in Korea TaeKwonDo as well and claims that the Koreans owe him for popularizing it

 

[isshinryuronin]

You are in error factually and in your hearing/interpretation.

2:18: "It was called Tang Soo Do, now it's called TaeKwonDo"

Of course Chuck was addressing a largely uninformed audience as well as David Letterman who are looking for surface entertainment and not MA minutia. TKD was a better known term so the audience had something to relate to regarding Korean MA.

If he was a forms competitor it would be another story.

Chuck WAS a forms competitor and a very good one. I witnessed him winning several trophies in forms.

Here in the first minutes of the interview Chuck calls his training in Korea TaeKwonDo as well and claims that the Koreans owe him for popularizing it

He actually said "Korean system" was popularized by his fighting success. This is before his movies and while he ID'd his system as TSD. His school was just around the corner from mine and what he did there was TSD.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

His school was just around the corner from mine and what he did there was TSD..

You don't seem to understand the historical reason for the birth of TaeKwonDo.. TaeKwonDo was a name change to Korean Karate schools. Tang Soo Do representation only survived because not all of the TSD lineages agreed to the switch.

TaeKwonDo did not have the original 24 Korean patterns completed when the name change came about.

The schools in the 50s were still stuck with TSD curriculum, at most containing a couple of new Korean patterns. Many rebranded TKD chains refused to incorporate new Korean patterns that were available

So, If one trained in a TKD or TSD school in the 50s would have been largely indistinguishable.

 

[dvcochran]

Of course Chuck was addressing a largely uninformed audience as well as David Letterman who are looking for surface entertainment and not MA minutia. TKD was a better known term so the audience had something to relate to regarding Korean MA.

I can relate. Although purely a TKD school we named our first Midstate Karate Studio because we were convinced no one would know what Tae Kwon Do was.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

I can relate. Although purely a TKD school we named our first Midstate Karate Studio because we were convinced no one would know what Tae Kwon Do was.

Did the belt certificates read Karate too?

 

[dvcochran]

Did the belt certificates read Karate too?

No, we were/are MKD TKD and the certificates read as such.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

No, we were/are MKD TKD and the certificates read as such.

What time period was this?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

30:15 is quite pertinent to the discussion, although General Chois original patterns were completed in 63, not the 70s as the presenter claims... the very first pattern was introduced in 1959 if I recall correctly.

 

[InfiniteLoop]

2:31

Hmm...

 

[dvcochran]

2:31

Hmm...

Is there a point to any of your posts?

 

[InfiniteLoop]

Is there a point to any of your posts?

He does not say: "I first did Tang Soo Do and then switched to TaeKwonDo" .....

It is not an uncommon view that Tang Soo Do is TaeKwonDo.

 

[dvcochran]

He does not say: "I first did Tang Soo Do and then switched to TaeKwonDo" .....

It is not an uncommon view that Tang Soo Do is TaeKwonDo.

 

[dvcochran]

In the states I would say that is uncommon.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Chuck Norris is of the opinion that Tang Soo Do is a form of TaeKwonDo, as shared by Pat Johnson, his partner in Korean Karate schools.

You can hear Pat name Tang Soo Do as a form of TaeKwonDo in the intro here.

What is your source of this alleged opinion by Chuck Norris. ?

What is the time stamp where Pat Johnson says that? At about 10 seconds that is not what he says.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Chuck is

So Chucky is well within his rights to call Tang Soo Do a form of TaeKwonDo.

The free sparring of Tang Soo Do is essentially the same as ITF.

Yep, free country, you can call stuff whatever you want.

Do you have a source for your claim that TSD sparring is the same as ITF sparring? HAs it always been so?

 

[Earl Weiss]

If the founder thought it was an insult, why didn't all TSD schools uniformly reject the name change?

For the same reason TKD was initially referred to as "Korean Karate" Though initially rejected by many Marketing benefits outweighed their distaste particularly when government influence and money was huge factor.