Chuck Norris and a BJJ question

[ballen0351]

Steve I can give you specifics to the best of my ability but I really dont know the "clubs" or "factions" for lack of a better term. The club and only club Ive seen in person was in my home town and the instructor had a Lion head with like a green and yellow background as his patch and he claimed to be part of some long line of BJJ masters. Im sorry I cant tell you his name or the organization it was. He had a website but the school has closed down and the website is now gone. But I know people that started there having never taken any Martial art before and were brown belt assistant instructors with in a year. It was also the only BJJ school in the area so if you joined you had no way of knowing you were learing crap unless you did venture out to other competitions and got your butt handed to you.
Its good to see your defending your art so passionately but I think your blinded to see that there are sub par schools out there that are just as bad as belt factories in other Arts. They may not have as many yet but for many peopel BJJ is the new kid on the block so there are not as many schools yet. You may not be around them because the sub par schools may stay away from competitions or at least competitions your involved with. Ive seen some questionable BJJ schools in Baltimore promoting there own inhouse invitational competitions and the flyers show large muscle bound guys with pit bulls and spiked collars 8 foot tall trophies and words like "Bring the pain" and it looks more like a promo for a new hip hop club then a BJJ competition. We get them sent to our Dojo every now and then next time I see one Ill grab it and post it.

 

[puunui]

It's odd how your experience, someone who is appealing to the authority of someone who trains with someone else, is universal. Mine, on the other hand, as someone who competes and trains in the style, is local. Curious.

I already explained it and I will tell you that you are misreading what I wrote. Try reading it again. But since you brought it up, what exactly is your experience in BJJ? How long have you been at it? And how much have you seen outside of your own area?

As I said, your opinion is valid, as it belongs to you. But it remains a second hand account based upon anecdotal evidence interpreted by you. If you're clear about that, it makes things easy. Just qualify your statement at the beginning as someone who has zero direct experience or firsthand knowledge about the topic at hand.

Wrong again. Some of it comes from others, but some of it is not. And I have trained in GJJ as well, in case you forgot, before you ever heard of it, before most people have heard of it. My first experience with Brazilian Jiujitsu was in the very early 80's, when a group of brazilian students joined the hapkido school that I was teaching at. What were you doing as far as BJJ was concerned back then?

I told my student about this discussion, and invited him to join in, but he didn't care. But if you are ever in Hawaii, I can introduce you to him and you can speak to him directly about it, if that makes a difference to you. He will tell you the exact same thing that I have.

And, for what it's worth, if you're alleging that standards are slipping, a little specificity might help. Without specifics, it amounts to hearsay. "I know a guy who trains with a guy who is best friends with Jhoon Rhee's cousin, and HE says that TKD has really gone to hell. So, it MUST be true."

Actually that would be quadruple hearsay, not hearsay, unless GM Rhee's cousin told you directly that taekwondo has really gone to hell.

It's easy to grouse about how crappy things are and the world's going to pot, but everyone says that about everything. It's almost never grounded in fact, and is often little more than a longing for a past that never really existed. Jiu Jitsu is going to hell. The kids these days are lazy. Give me a 60's era muscle car instead of these plastic pieces of crap. Nobody cooks like my mom. Pat Benetar was way more awesome than Britney Spears. Blah, blahbity blah. But that's just my opinion.

I think you are taking this much too extremely and much too personally. No one is saying jiujitsu is going to hell, about how crappy things are or the world's going to pot.

 

[Steve]

Couple of things, but on small keyboard, so I'll keep it short. First really not taking it personally. Easy to misunderstand from text. Don't worry. No hard feelings at all on this side.

Second, Im an open book, literally. The link at the bottom of my post is to my blog. I have been training since 2006, and started my blog within the first couple months after I started. You can read about all my ups and downs. My back issues. My good days and my bad ones. I blog about reffing and competing and everything else.

I'm not a BJJ nuthugger and as i said, i will readily agree that the sport/art is changing. I just disagree with you. As with any sport or martial art, there are traditionalists and conservatives who wring their hands and long for the good old days. But the sport is such that there are elite guys in just about every area. We have old school guys like Marcelo Alonso in the Seattle area. Ivan sala erry has a gym next to Denny park. My coach has a bronze medal at the pan ams and still competes. He has promoted only three to black belt. There are guys in the local area who compete at the Mundials and pan ams every year. As I said, the combination of local and international competition. Is important. It keeps the ranks somewhat uniform. If anything, it slows it down. It still takes an average of 10 years to get a black belt, and frankly, I'm on the 15 year plan and have no problem with it.

Bottom line though is that the culture remains about mat time. Most guys I know seek to avoid promotion and just want to train. As long as that remains the emphasis, I'm confident that things are just fine.


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[punisher73]

So to sum it up. BJJ competition and skill level is higher than ever in legitimate schools and organizations. The examples given of shady practices are all of small independant schools that backgrounds couldn't be checked etc.

Even in our small town, we have a VERY good BJJ school and instructor (great guy, when my finances and time permitted it, I trained with those guys and I'm still friends with a couple of them) and then there was a more recent "bjj/mma" school that opened up. Never went to the other school, but had friends that did and it was pretty much self taught stuff that he may have learned here or there at seminars or short studies. Now to say that BJJ or MMA standards are slipping would be a falsehood, because what you have it a nontrained conman ripping people off for money. Now, when the Gracies and Machados and all the other big organizations start handing out BB's after a year of training and it becomes a joke that a kid with one or two years of high school wrestling can beat their BB's, THEN I will say that the standards are slipping and aren't what they used to be.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First off I would agree that the level of BJJ practitioners around the world is fantastic and improving every year! This can be easily witnessed by watching some high level competitions and then comparing them to footage for several years ago. The elite level practitioners have never been better.

Unfortunately, not everyone is an elite level practitioner or someone participating at an elite level school. Steve is right that money has always been a part of BJJ as students have historically always paid for classes. However, back in the day it was a lot harder to make your living teaching BJJ while now it is possible to do pretty well as a sole method of income. When some thing is a sole method of income it is harder to always keep standards as high as you would like!

I have had multiple experiences with BJJ blue belts and even purple belts coming into my Training Hall for a class or a personal lesson. My experience is that the purple belts were good and appropriately ranked. The blue belts not so much. It was more of a situation there were you couldn't tell until you rolled with them. One was mediocre at best and had only trained for a year and was tapping like crazy with people of relatively similar time in our system. What I have seen personally is that some of the fundamentals were not as strong as what they should be but they did have more advanced submissions than say someone who trained a long time ago.

Still overall the ranking system in BJJ is the best in the world for a wide spread system. Let us hope that it remains that way!

 

[Steve]

Okay. I had to dig up this video by John Wills. He's a machado black belt. Very old school. In fact, he's one of the Dirty Dozen of BJJ... the first 12 non-Brazilian black belts around, and he lives and teaches in Australia. He put together the following video. It's funny. It's undoubtedly a very legitimate point of view from a well respected and credible person. Agree or disagree, I hope everyone enjoys it as much as I did.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yeah I remember that :uhyeah:

 

[puunui]

O In fact, he's one of the Dirty Dozen of BJJ... the first 12 non-Brazilian black belts around

Who are the other dirty dozen? When was the first non brazilian awarded his/her black belt?

 

[ballen0351]

http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/

Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years

 

[ralphmcpherson]

http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/

Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years

And thats how it all starts.

 

[Kwan Jang]

This ad for Lloyd Irwin's program is an example of fluctuations in standards in the BJJ community. I've heard that the IFBJJ didn't recognize his students ranks because they don't meet the time in grade requirements (I don't know if that is still the case). In defense of Lloyd's methods, I actually see his training methods as being far more efficient than the vast majority of the BJJ instructors out there. He develops far more effective training systems than most who just show you a technique, give you a few pointers and then have you roll until you finally get proficient at it. I'm not one of his guys, but I see validity to many of his methods and he has had a lot of success in turning out the same level (and in many cases even better) of competitors/fighters in 3-5 years than many other schools do in 10-12. However, I can see this as a VERY slippery slope. If he can produce competent BB fighters in this short of a time, it won't be long before the McDojos use his example of why they too should be able to do so. Even though they don't have the rack record that his people do.

 

[Steve]

Who are the other dirty dozen? When was the first non brazilian awarded his/her black belt?

1991
Craig Kukuk (Royler Gracie)

1992
Ken Gabrielson (Reylson Gracie)

1995
David Kama (Rickson Gracie)
Bob Bass (Rigan Machado)
Chris Saunders (Rickson Gracie)

1996
Chris Haueter (Rigan Machado)
David Meyer (Rigan Machado)
Rick Wlliams (Rigan Machado)
Rick Minter (Rigan Machado)

1997
John Lewis (Andre Pederneiras)

1998
Roy Harris (Joe Moreira)
John Will (Rigan and J J Machado)
Rick Lucero (Joe Moreira)


Since we are all about sharing, who were the Brazilian black belts you trained with in the 80s?

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[punisher73]

http://www.thegrapplingblueprint.com/

Get your BJJ black belt in 3 and 1/2 years

Except you don't. The program lays out the details and strategy that he employed to get his belt in that amount of time. BJ Penn got his in about 4 years, and that is one reason why he was called "the prodigy", these guys are the exceptions rather than the norm. He also says that he got a Judo BB in a year and a BB in Sambo in a year, and advertises that following his plan you will too.

He isn't the one promoting you through his program, it is a lot of marketing hype to make it seem like it is all easy and doesn't require lots of hard work. Does he have better methods and organization to learn? Probably, lots of guys are happy with the methods. But, you'll notice that there is no money back guarantee that you will get your belt in that amount of time.

 

[Kwan Jang]

While he may not be promoting you through this program, there are at least two black belts under him in the Nashville area alone that Lloyd has promoted in this time frame. I'm in middle TN and this caused a bit of a stir in the local grappling community. There was also a school in the area that when it joined Team Lloyd Irwin, several of the instructors went from purple or brown very quickly to black and others in the area cried foul and noted that their rank was not recognized by the IFBJJ. Personally, I don't care too much for politics either way and I know that one of the instructors took the silver at the Pan Ams, so I have no problem with him being promoted. The school owner might have been iffy, but to me Lloyd has the results, so I'm not going to second guess him. Sometimes I don't get what my own org. is thinking at times and I'm very loyal and high ranked in it and I don't like OUR politics, so I'm honestly not taking pot shots at others. I am just pointing out my observation that this is a break from the normal standards and potentially a slippery slope that even if this is not an abuse in this case, it could be setting an example that will be abused later to justify the McDojos.

 

[Xue Sheng]

1991
Craig Kukuk (Royler Gracie)

1992
Ken Gabrielson (Reylson Gracie)

1995
David Kama (Rickson Gracie)
Bob Bass (Rigan Machado)
Chris Saunders (Rickson Gracie)

1996
Chris Haueter (Rigan Machado)
David Meyer (Rigan Machado)
Rick Wlliams (Rigan Machado)
Rick Minter (Rigan Machado)

1997
John Lewis (Andre Pederneiras)

1998
Roy Harris (Joe Moreira)
John Will (Rigan and J J Machado)
Rick Lucero (Joe Moreira)


Since we are all about sharing, who were the Brazilian black belts you trained with in the 80s?

Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.

 

[Steve]

And to bring this thing full circle, John Will, member of the dirty dozen and old school jiu jitsu badass, was introduced to the Machado brothers by Chuck Norris. At least, I recall reading an article by John Will saying something like that. I know that the two have been friends since the 80s.

 

[puunui]

Since we are all about sharing, who were the Brazilian black belts you trained with in the 80s?

I told this already. I first heard of Gracie Jiujitsu from a group of brazilians who joined the dojang I was teaching at. They mentioned that they studied "jiujitsu" (without any other description) in brazil. They may have told me that their teacher was a member of the Gracie family, but I don't remember specifically. So I asked them to show me their stuff, but they weren't very good, and through brute strength (I was about 155 and benching 300 with 6% body fat at the time) I could counter their stuff. I thought the concept was good, but they weren't at a level where they could make it work against me, especially if I was standing up. A few years later, i saw them at the beach and they said that their teacher had moved here and i should go study with him. So I did. That was Relson Gracie, he had just moved to Hawaii and he was 4th dan at the time. There was a brown belt named carlos. There was also a purple belt named Romolo Barros who I still keep in touch with and who has a school here. When I started there was those two, a white belt who started a couple of weeks maybe before me, and Relson. The school was carlos' garage, which was matted out. After class, I used to drive relson home because it was on my way.

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

Chuck Norris received his brown belt when he roundhouse kicked Machado in the face. Chuck Norris got further ranks when he went back in time and taught Okinawans Karate. Rofl.