BJJ. I think it is getting *slightly* easier to get rank now. Still no where near other arts though, and I haven't heard of any children obtaining black belts in BJJ, not even if your last name is Gracie. But things are evolving for sure in the BJJ world.
Chuck Norris and a BJJ question
- Thread starter Xue Sheng
- Start date
BJJ. I think it is getting *slightly* easier to get rank now. Still no where near other arts though, and I haven't heard of any children obtaining black belts in BJJ, not even if your last name is Gracie. But things are evolving for sure in the BJJ world.
if you don't think my opinion is an informed one, then present your evidence to the contrary.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
The burden of proof isn't on me. I don't need to provide evidence that the sky is blue. If you assert that it is pink, it is on you to support your assertion.
If you're stating an opinion, fine. You're entitled to it. The weight your opinion holds, however, has everything to do with your credibility. So, if you'd prefer, you can share your resume so that we might better gauge the value of your opinion on the subject. In much the way my opinion on the fine details of TKD should be measured.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
People are looking to make money, but that's not the matter at hand. The assertion is that the standards are slipping. I'd assert that the opposite Is actually true. With the Internet making so much technical nfrmation available, purple belts now are more proficient and have more advanced technical proficiency than at any time before. And that also goes for further advanced ranks.
In other words, evolution has always been a part of BJJ, but in no way equals a reduction in standards.
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That, and the fact that there is money to be made from BJJ. Here, it takes a minimum of ten hard years to get a GJJ 1st Dan. I took a quick look around and see that some people out there on the mainland are claiming BJJ 2nd after six or less years. I just spoke to a student of mine who runs two Relson schools here and he told me exactly what I wrote above, that people are coming here on vacation, want to get some roll time in, and promptly get tapped by lower belts. He said his private lessons have shot out the roof from visiting BJJ practitioners. My student also said that there are pockets of excellence,those who stick to the "old school" ways, including the Machado groups. So back to the OP, if GM Chuck Norris got a black belt from the Machados, then I am sure he is the real deal.
ballen0351
Sr. Grandmaster
Bjj is not immune to the money making belt factory. They had a school open up here with questionable background of the head teacher. I know he quickly prmoted people to get assistant teachers. There arw no other bjj schools here so if you had nothing to compare it to you would think you were getting quality instruction. With in a year he had brown belts teaching classes that had never taken bjj before. He closed shop a few months ago. So to claim it does not happen is a head in the sand view. No art is safe from a guy looking for a quick buck.
That is another phenomenon out there, people with some judo, hapkido or even kenpo training moving somewhere and opening up a "BJJ/MMA" school. And like you said, with no one to compare it to, how is the student supposed to gauge what they are being taught is the real deal, something that would work against similarly ranked students from a different BJJ/GJJ school? What if there are no tournaments in your area?
Kwan Jang
Purple Belt
Even back in the mid-nineties, there were members of the Gracie clan (iirc it was Junior, but can't swear to it)that were advertising in the martial art industry journals/mags to get a purple belt IF you bought his $400 instructional tape set. They might have required you to be a BB in Judo or JJJ, but I do recall that and was thinking very poorly of the integrity of BJJ at the time.
ralphmcpherson
Senior Master
We have a questionable "bjj/mma" school in my area. I know very little about the school but have friends who have trained there on and off and said its pretty obvious the bjj instructor there is not the real deal. BJJ is the latest fad, just like karate was in the 80's, people will realise this and use it to make quick money and with that the belt factories will start, then some new art will become "the new kid on the block". Its just a cycle. You can almost be guaranteed that within 10 years there will be many places where you can get a bjj black belt quickly, unfortunately money ruins everything, and the average guy on the street doesnt shop around much before joining a club. As far as Im aware there is nothing stopping me from opening "ralph's bjj club" and as soon as people read "bjj" on the sign they will come in droves. Ten years ago it was virtually impossible to get a karate or tkd black belt quickly in my area, now there are a few mcdojos around. It would be naieve to think bjj will be immune to this.
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OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
I would agree that there are some changes occurring within the BJJ community. The growth of BJJ as a sport has led to more schools and an increasing distance between "sport" and "self defense" oriented schools.
But, I've not seen any indication that standards are dropping at all. The emphasis on competition and the cross pollination that occurs regularly within the BJJ community keeps schools from promoting too quickly or too slowly. Promote too fast and your school will gain a reputation for low standards. Promote too slow and your school will gain a reputation as sandbagging. And if you choose not to participate, you will quickly find your school ostracized.
And if you're teaching without credentials, you risk incurring the wrath of the BJJihad.Bottom line, though, is that I believe the allegations of lower standards is a combination of wishful thinking and idle speculation.
Thanks, good to know, and I hope it continues because I do truly respect BJJs rankings more that most these days
Steve
Mostly Harmless
This is pretty typical, and you'll hear the same rhetoric coming from just about every corner of the USA, as well. But when you go down to the Pan Ams or the Mundials and watch everyone compete, from white belt up to black, the quality is high and the standards are consistent. These guys come from all over the world. If the BJJ were so much better in Hawaii than anywhere else, the winners in each bracket would be Hawaiians. But they're not. Hawaii is not represented out of proportion to any place else.
And at every change in the wind, you will have some who decry the change as a lowering of the standard and some who embrace it and move on. For example, there was a time in BJJ when the half guard was considered mostly a stalling position. From half guard, the expectation from the bottom was at one time that the primary goal was to move back to guard. Now, half guard is considered by many a stronger offensive position than full guard. The same has been true for de la riva and now the same controversy is happening with 50/50. There are examples after examples.
Ultimately, as I said earlier, it sounds to me like speculation and wishful thinking on the part of guys who have no first hand knowledge. Making money has been a part of BJJ since the beginning, as have high standards. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If you're suggesting that BJJ continues to evolve and change, I'd agree wholeheartedly. The easy access to quality information, the DVDs, YouTube and just the availability and quality of the tournament footage, coupled with higher quality personal instruction available as schools grow and become more common, is making the art stronger, not weaker.
Are there schools trying to capitalize on the success and current popularity of the art? Sure, but unless the owner has rank, is qualified to teach and encourages competition among his students, it's specious to suggest that he is representative of the style in any way.
Edit: Just to be clear, when I speak about anything related to TKD, I try to be very careful to qualify my statements and ensure that they are made in context. It's just polite, IMO. Were I to make an unqualified, uninformed, blanket statement about TKD, I'd fully expect to be called on it, as I've seen you guys do repeatedly in the TKD forums.
What I think might be helpful are some specifics. Which schools are lowering the standards? Gracie Barra is the largest organization. Do you think they're lowering the standards? Pedro Sauer has a huge number of black belts teaching across the world. I'm with Lotus Club, and my instructor competes internationally and has done well. Lotus Club is smaller than other affiliations like Alliance or Gracie Barra. His coach is Giva Santana, who has gold medals at the pan ams, beating guys like Damian Maia, and has, IIRC, a 17-1 MMA record. Are we lowering the standards? What about on the East Coast... Lloyd Irvin? He's making a boat load of money. Is he lowering the standard? Every BJJ school I know is associated with a larger group. So, which group is it that's lowering the standard? If you are more specific, maybe we can get to the bottom of this.
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Totally understand. And I'm not saying that you guys are wrong to have an opinion. But I'd prefer to keep things factual and in context.
That works both ways. To put your earlier post about jiujitsu worlds within the perspective of taekwondo would be like saying show up to a USAT national or WTF international event and you would see that the standards for taekwondo are still high. But that says nothing for what is going on at the dojang level. That, from my perspective, is the factual context of your position. We are talking about different things, you talking about the standards at worlds and me the standards at the school level.
OP
OP
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Don't make me tell Chuck about this little argument...he will not be pleased
> When Chuck Norris crosses the pacific, swimming, sharks hear the "Jaws" music.
> Fear of spiders is aracnaphobia, fear of tight spaces is chlaustraphobia, fear of Chuck Norris is called Logic
> There used to be a street named after Chuck Norris, but it was changed because nobody crosses Chuck Norris and lives.
> Ghosts sit around the campfire and tell Chuck Norris stories.
> Once the cop pulled over Chuck Norris....the cop was lucky to leave with a warning.
> Chuck Norris has a grizzly bear carpet in his room. The bear isn't dead it is just afriad to move.
> Some magicans can walk on water, Chuck Norris can swim through land.
> When Chuck Norris crosses the pacific, swimming, sharks hear the "Jaws" music.
> Fear of spiders is aracnaphobia, fear of tight spaces is chlaustraphobia, fear of Chuck Norris is called Logic
> There used to be a street named after Chuck Norris, but it was changed because nobody crosses Chuck Norris and lives.
> Ghosts sit around the campfire and tell Chuck Norris stories.
> Once the cop pulled over Chuck Norris....the cop was lucky to leave with a warning.
> Chuck Norris has a grizzly bear carpet in his room. The bear isn't dead it is just afriad to move.
> Some magicans can walk on water, Chuck Norris can swim through land.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
And again, I'm looking for some specifics from you. What schools have you seen? What organizations or affiliations do you believe are cause for concern where standards aren't being met? Let's get to brass tacks.
There are dozens of BJJ schools in the PNW, and I can think of only two that are cause for concern. They are well known in the area and they have a very small footprint on the grappling community because they are largely ostracized from it. I don't see it as being an indication that standards are slipping.
Regarding the mundials and the pan ams, I can't speak to the similarities to the TKD tournaments. I can only tell you that they are open tournaments, not invitationals, and while there is an obvious range, the quality within each division is good. They represent multiple affiliations, and schools from all over.
I don't think it is necessary or even advisable to get "specific" as you would say. And it is mostly my student, a Relson black belt who runs three schools, including one close to Waikiki who tells me these things, although I have watched visitors with higher ranks tapping out to lower ranked students here. The visitors come from all over, including other countries like Australia and New Zealand. A have a lot of interaction with BJJ students, for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is because they like my kicking style and strategy which tends to completely neutralize punching in MMA matches. My next door neighbor is also a GJJ black belt and he tells me the same thing. Everyone I interact with say the same thing, that the promotion standards are softening in BJJ for a variety of reasons. Makes me wonder why you say different.
It seems that your "experience" or "expertise" is limited to your specific area only. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that. Perhaps everything is as you say it is, in your area. But please don't be surprised or angry if others, including but not limited to those who have been at it longer than you have, have a different opinion and perspective on things.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
It's odd how your experience, someone who is appealing to the authority of someone who trains with someone else, is universal. Mine, on the other hand, as someone who competes and trains in the style, is local. Curious.
As I said, your opinion is valid, as it belongs to you. But it remains a second hand account based upon anecdotal evidence interpreted by you. If you're clear about that, it makes things easy. Just qualify your statement at the beginning as someone who has zero direct experience or firsthand knowledge about the topic at hand.
Just as I try to be clear about my experience (or lack of) in TKD when I share my opinions on that subject.
And, for what it's worth, if you're alleging that standards are slipping, a little specificity might help. Without specifics, it amounts to hearsay. "I know a guy who trains with a guy who is best friends with Jhoon Rhee's cousin, and HE says that TKD has really gone to hell. So, it MUST be true." It's easy to grouse about how crappy things are and the world's going to pot, but everyone says that about everything. It's almost never grounded in fact, and is often little more than a longing for a past that never really existed. Jiu Jitsu is going to hell. The kids these days are lazy. Give me a 60's era muscle car instead of these plastic pieces of crap. Nobody cooks like my mom. Pat Benetar was way more awesome than Britney Spears. Blah, blahbity blah.
But that's just my opinion.
As I said, your opinion is valid, as it belongs to you. But it remains a second hand account based upon anecdotal evidence interpreted by you. If you're clear about that, it makes things easy. Just qualify your statement at the beginning as someone who has zero direct experience or firsthand knowledge about the topic at hand.
Just as I try to be clear about my experience (or lack of) in TKD when I share my opinions on that subject.
And, for what it's worth, if you're alleging that standards are slipping, a little specificity might help. Without specifics, it amounts to hearsay. "I know a guy who trains with a guy who is best friends with Jhoon Rhee's cousin, and HE says that TKD has really gone to hell. So, it MUST be true." It's easy to grouse about how crappy things are and the world's going to pot, but everyone says that about everything. It's almost never grounded in fact, and is often little more than a longing for a past that never really existed. Jiu Jitsu is going to hell. The kids these days are lazy. Give me a 60's era muscle car instead of these plastic pieces of crap. Nobody cooks like my mom. Pat Benetar was way more awesome than Britney Spears. Blah, blahbity blah.
But that's just my opinion.
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