Chow interview Synopsis

[JakeG]

I've heard this story before about Cerio's Hansuki being different than Chun's. I'd love too see footage of the two versions for comparison.

Well I have never seen them compared, however I did do the first 5 moves for some Cerio students once and they did not recognize it.

Jacob

 

[Joe Shuras]

How's it going. I'm a new member here. I know this is an old thread, but I just read this post. The Chun Hansuki/Honsuki has rapid fire punching? Is this Go Shin Jitsu-Kai Chinese Kempo's Bill Chun you are speaking of? I know this form and this is not a true observation unless somebody has changed it since I learned it in in the early 90's. Chun's Kempo was never about rapid fire hits. Please elaborate thankyou!

Jacob

Hello Jacob, I'm a little puzzled also. About five or six years ago in Framingham, Ma. (I'll have to check my certificate for the exact year) - myself, Joe Rebelo and Matt Barnes asked Master Bill Chun Jr. about Hansuki. He demonstrated a portion of the beginning, the middle and the end. We all not only observed similiarites (differences also) but there was definitely the rapid fire hand strikes. The SKK version, although different, was recognizable to what Master Chun showed us.

Now, here's some of the confusion. I also have communicated via e-mail with Master Chun on this form and he explained how it is not part of the curriculum but a chosen form to be given to chosen black belts. Jacob, when you demonstrated for Nick Chamberlain and John James of Nick Cerio's Kenpo they were comparing the form to Cat Form #5, not Shaolin Kempo Karate's Honsuki/Hansuki. Nick Cerio took Hansuki and radically altered it to fit his own perpective when he created Nick Cerio's Kenpo. So, that is probably some of the confusion here and why it was unrecognizable.

Now, on another thread here there is some question of who altered the SKK version, Nick Cerio or Fred Villari. I asked Nick Cerio this back around 15 years ago. He told me Master Bill Chun Sr. taught him the form and he chose his brother, Frank Cerio, to teach the form too. Later, when Nick was in Florida, Frank taught it to Fred Villari without Nick's permission. I believe this was around 1971. Nick also told me there were elbows, forearms and sweeps in the original that Fred had deleted. For the SKK practitioners here, I asked Nick Cerio about the section where you're in a horse stance facing 9 o'clock and you throw the double rapid fire strikes up the torso to the head and he stated Fred put that in but it does appear to be something along the line of Chow's methods from what others have stated.

I would like to go on record to say I have been in the company of Master Chun Jr. three times, seminars and the Nick Cerio's Legacy Memorial and have found him to be a credit to the martial arts community, highly skilled, powerful, tough as nails and a helluva nice guy. A real professional. He has my utmost respect and admiration. IMHO, he is Chow's Kempo - Joe

 

[marlon]

Master Shuras,
did Master Chun jr. feel that the skk version still taught the essentials of the original form?

marlon

 

[Joe Shuras]

Master Shuras,
did Master Chun jr. feel that the skk version still taught the essentials of the original form?

marlon

Marlon, I'll tell you what, below I'll will post a correspodence I had with Master Chun Jr. on the form and then I will give you my perspective.

Dear Shihan Shuras,I've received your e-mail from my student Brian, I'm using my wife's computerso I can try to answer your question. This way I can explain a few thingsabout your question.First, I'll let you know that at the GOE2 I met Shihan James and Chamberlainthat also were students of the late Nick Cerio. They asked the same questionabout our Hansuki, so what I did I had my student Jacob Goetz who alsotrained under my father, do 10 moves of the Hansuki. The reason I had him doonly 10 moves, was because I knew the 2 gentleman that I just met wasn'tgoing to recognize our moves. Because, there are different versions andspellings. When Jacob was done Shihan Chamberlain looked down and shook hishead and than looked up at and said," that's not how we do it". So I tried tocomfort him by telling him that if Nick Cerio taught it another way don'tfeel bad about it. We have to remember one important thing in our Kenpo/Kempoworld! Our teachers had their own version or vision as their teachers. LikeI'm telling many of you that knows the Hansuki or Honsuki this form is thelinage to our teachers and our roots... God bless our Kenpo/Kempo fathersthat brought this art as it suppose to be. I hope that you will also teachanother side of this form. We are creators of this art. This form shouldhave more moves in it so that whoever teaches it can show our roots...So Shihan Shuras as you will get to know me and what the relationship I hadwith the 2 most important people that loved so dearly and what they taughtme, is always going to be with me until I leave this world. Also our blackbelts were taught forms that they should know for promotion only to become ablack belt. And there are some of them that weren't taught the Hansuki form.I will keep my promise to the Prof. and my father that the chosen ones willbe the only ones taught this form...I will close for now and I hope to hear from you again, we are Kenpo/Kempofamily by roots of Professor William K.S. Chow...Aloha,Master Bill Chun,Jr.GSJK/DSKK

Marlon, as my friend Peter Teymourez once posted on a thread when some of us were going back and forth on what was the original (Hansuki) and so forth. He essentially wrote: 'It doesn't suppose to be the same, we're Shaolin Kempo not Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.' 'We are suppose to be different'.

I say: This is our version, it is not wrong and it is not watered done, just altered to meet the criteria and the vision of those seniors (Cerio & Villari) of our lineage who came before us, who modified and adapted the form to fit their own perspective of Kenpo/Kempo and what they felt it should be.

The SKK version contains many principles and concepts of Professor Chow's perspective of Kenpo with, I'm sure, a touch of Villari and Cerio who also trace back to George Pesare, the New England founder of Kenpo/Kempo Karate. I've read and heard Chow stressed going up and down the centerline rapid fire, sometimes hitting the same targets multiply times to set up and destruct vital areas, he also utilized what I refer to the 'rising and falling' horse stance, the poison hand, striking and/or blocking off the lead, the soft inward block or trap at your bicep as you simultaneously strike w/ a spear hand to throat or solar plexus (seen that in a picture of Chow), the tension breathing exercises that is strongly stressed in Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo, and the opening striking combination done on both sides at 10 o'clock & 3 o'clock w/ the riken (side type backfist to the face which as you draw back continues into a side hammer fist to solar plexus, I've seen this movement done by Master Chun Jr. on a video clip as a self defense technique, I think it was against a grab.....all these I've just mentioned are in the Honsuki I learned in SKK in the 70's.

GGM. Ralph Castro stated in a magazine article of Professor Chow's concept of FINDING OR CREATING AN OPENING in an opponent's defense (or offense for that matter) through the bombardment of rapid fire strikes. Now, I wonder, "to find or create an opening" (that's taken verbatim)......Han + half or small + suki = opening...could this be the true translation and meaning of this form???

Master Chun encouraged us to add our own signature moves where they can be grafted into the form without interrupting the flow, in other words, make sure they fit in and stressed to always call the form by the name it's creator originally gave to it out of respect even though it has been altered - Joe

 

[Carol]

Welcome back to Martial Talk, Professor Shuras.

 

[Joe Shuras]

Welcome back to Martial Talk, Professor Shuras.

Thank you very much, Carol.

 

[marlon]

Marlon, I'll tell you what, below I'll will post a correspodence I had with Master Chun Jr. on the form and then I will give you my perspective.

Dear Shihan Shuras,I've received your e-mail from my student Brian, I'm using my wife's computerso I can try to answer your question. This way I can explain a few thingsabout your question.First, I'll let you know that at the GOE2 I met Shihan James and Chamberlainthat also were students of the late Nick Cerio. They asked the same questionabout our Hansuki, so what I did I had my student Jacob Goetz who alsotrained under my father, do 10 moves of the Hansuki. The reason I had him doonly 10 moves, was because I knew the 2 gentleman that I just met wasn'tgoing to recognize our moves. Because, there are different versions andspellings. When Jacob was done Shihan Chamberlain looked down and shook hishead and than looked up at and said," that's not how we do it". So I tried tocomfort him by telling him that if Nick Cerio taught it another way don'tfeel bad about it. We have to remember one important thing in our Kenpo/Kempoworld! Our teachers had their own version or vision as their teachers. LikeI'm telling many of you that knows the Hansuki or Honsuki this form is thelinage to our teachers and our roots... God bless our Kenpo/Kempo fathersthat brought this art as it suppose to be. I hope that you will also teachanother side of this form. We are creators of this art. This form shouldhave more moves in it so that whoever teaches it can show our roots...So Shihan Shuras as you will get to know me and what the relationship I hadwith the 2 most important people that loved so dearly and what they taughtme, is always going to be with me until I leave this world. Also our blackbelts were taught forms that they should know for promotion only to become ablack belt. And there are some of them that weren't taught the Hansuki form.I will keep my promise to the Prof. and my father that the chosen ones willbe the only ones taught this form...I will close for now and I hope to hear from you again, we are Kenpo/Kempofamily by roots of Professor William K.S. Chow...Aloha,Master Bill Chun,Jr.GSJK/DSKK

Marlon, as my friend Peter Teymourez once posted on a thread when some of us were going back and forth on what was the original (Hansuki) and so forth. He essentially wrote: 'It doesn't suppose to be the same, we're Shaolin Kempo not Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.' 'We are suppose to be different'.

I say: This is our version, it is not wrong and it is not watered done, just altered to meet the criteria and the vision of those seniors (Cerio & Villari) of our lineage who came before us, who modified and adapted the form to fit their own perspective of Kenpo/Kempo and what they felt it should be.

The SKK version contains many principles and concepts of Professor Chow's perspective of Kenpo with, I'm sure, a touch of Villari and Cerio who also trace back to George Pesare, the New England founder of Kenpo/Kempo Karate. I've read and heard Chow stressed going up and down the centerline rapid fire, sometimes hitting the same targets multiply times to set up and destruct vital areas, he also utilized what I refer to the 'rising and falling' horse stance, the poison hand, striking and/or blocking off the lead, the soft inward block or trap at your bicep as you simultaneously strike w/ a spear hand to throat or solar plexus (seen that in a picture of Chow), the tension breathing exercises that is strongly stressed in Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo, and the opening striking combination done on both sides at 10 o'clock & 3 o'clock w/ the riken (side type backfist to the face which as you draw back continues into a side hammer fist to solar plexus, I've seen this movement done by Master Chun Jr. on a video clip as a self defense technique, I think it was against a grab.....all these I've just mentioned are in the Honsuki I learned in SKK in the 70's.

GGM. Ralph Castro stated in a magazine article of Professor Chow's concept of FINDING OR CREATING AN OPENING in an opponent's defense (or offense for that matter) through the bombardment of rapid fire strikes. Now, I wonder, "to find or create an opening" (that's taken verbatim)......Han + half or small + suki = opening...could this be the true translation and meaning of this form???

Master Chun encouraged us to add our own signature moves where they can be grafted into the form without interrupting the flow, in other words, make sure they fit in and stressed to always call the form by the name it's creator originally gave to it out of respect even though it has been altered - Joe

I thank you Prof.Shuras and thank you to master Chun jr. for an incredible answer.
With deep respect,
marlon

 

[Joe Shuras]

You're welcome, Marlon. If you ever have a chance to meet Master Bill Chun Jr. possibly a seminar, do it, you will be very impressed not only with his knowledge and abilities but his character, as you already have a head's up on which was reflected in that e-mail. I've been to three seminars plus he represented his father at the Nick Cerio Legacy Memorial in Massachusetts - Joe

 

[marlon]

You're welcome, Marlon. If you ever have a chance to meet Master Bill Chun Jr. possibly a seminar, do it, you will be very impressed not only with his knowledge and abilities but his character, as you already have a head's up on which was reflected in that e-mail. I've been to three seminars plus he represented his father at the Nick Cerio Legacy Memorial in Massachusetts - Joe

I met the man,all too briefly, recently at a seminar. His energy is high and his passion for kempo and teaching are extrordinary. Unfortuneately, it was not a formal introduction nor did i manage to speak with him about kempo at all, and i feel there was a lot he taught and wanted to teach but had not the time. perhaps, some time in the futur.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Joe Shuras]

Marlon, a few more things about Hansuki. In the original Villari version there was the the grabbing the gi (of course, shirt/jacket for the street) and pulling the attacker into the punch. I have read this was a favorite of Chow's. This, as you know is in the beginning of the form, after the breathing exercise as you face 9 o'clock and then you turn to 3 o'clock and do it mirror image. Also another favorite was striking and grabbing the throat area (initially using what we call the tiger mouth hand strike) and then pulling/ripping back into a reverse punch w/ the opposite hand. Both these techniques are found in Villari's Honsuki. The grabbing and pulling into a punch is also found in SKK #3 combination (a Cerio modification after training w/ Chow/Chun). In Nick Cerio's Kenpo, this technique also shows up in 'Conquering Shield' and at the end of Circle of the Leopard.

I also understand the double punching (front punches and hammers) and striking (poison hand strikes) sequence from a horse stance, moving up the centerline to the head multiple times in the SKK version came from Chow's teachings.

Here is a short excerpt from post #132 on the Kara Ho thread by Peter Teymourez: "Hansuki is a beautiful and challenging form. The Shaolin Kempo's version is different but close enough. Its signature, is rapid fire strikes....."

I have reached the conclusion that the SKK version is not incomplete or watered down or wrong, it's simply was modified to fit a particular instructors' perspective for his system, but still largely based on the teaching concepts of Prof. Chow & Bill Chun Sr. I was with Master Bill Chun Jr. when Villari's Honsuki, not the NCK version, was peformed for him and you read his positive e-mail on how he feels about any variations of the form. The only thing he does insist on is that you pay homage to the form's creator by keeping the name 'Hansuki' despite your interpretations/modifications. I know from past posts on the Kara Ho thread some may not agree and feel if you alter the form, you should also change the name and that's their perrogative. I'm just relating what Master Chun told me. I'm sure GGM. Ralph Castro has variations of the original also.

Marlon, here's something I cut and pasted below that I don't get at all. In all due respect to Sam Kuoha of Kara Ho Kempo, there is no way Hansuki was a form from James Mitose, I can't see how Chow could have said that, it must be a mistake. I think this goes without saying, just ask Bill Chun Jr. Naihanchi, yes, of course, that was a form Mitose taught. Besides, just look at the form, it looks like nothing that could have come from Mitose's curriculum, nor did I ever hear it did. I was always told it represented the Chow/Chun connection. See below an excerpt from post #221 of the Kara Ho thread:

#221 vbrep_register("242938")

06-30-2004, 05:50 PM
gmkuoha

vbmenu_register("postmenu_242938", true);
Account Closed
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 87

Re: Kara-Ho Kenpo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark L
GM Kuoha,​

What forms are the basis of Kara-Ho, and what is there origin?​

The only things that could be considered as forms that the Kara-Ho Kempo System had in the 50-70's was Professor Chow's linear techniques. In the 50's to the mid 70's, Professor said that he did use the Hansuki Form and the Nanhuchi Form but these were all derivitive of the Mitosi System.​

 

[marlon]

Prof.Shuras,
thanks and keep it coming!!
Should you ever add sweeps and elbows to your hansuki i would love to see it. Myself, i do not feel anywhere qualified enough to consider this. I did get a technique from a Villari seminar that started like 42 but then pulled into an uppercut spun into an elbow strike and a sweep then hasd a very Chow like finish coplete with tiger mouth to the throat and palm to the head to counter balance the rip out...might look good in the form somewhere...

I have communicated several times with GM K and he is a very sincere man. He has always said that Prof.Chow did not use forms. i believe the commnet was simply not being precise about it because he knows that it was created by master Chun Sr.
be well
marlon

 

[dianhsuhe]

Do you guys have a question regarding Kara-Ho?

 

[Joe Shuras]

Marlon, yes, I grafted an elbow and forearm into SKK's Hansuki from what I saw Master Chun Jr. do when he was in Massachusetts. To paraphrase a little but this was the gist, he told me if I wished to add anything, a signature move or the forearm and elbow that I could put it at the end or simply splice or graft it in somewhere so it doesn't interrupt the flow of the form. As far as the sweeps go, some of the original footwork, imho, can be already interpreted as sweeps.

Dianshuhe, not really, just that in a past post Gm. Kuoha stated the following:

"The only things that could be considered as forms that the Kara-Ho Kempo System had in the 50-70's was Professor Chow's linear techniques. In the 50's to the mid 70's, Professor said that he did use the Hansuki Form and the Nanhuchi Form but these were all derivitive of the Mitosi System."

Respectfully, our feelings are that he must have been mistaken that Prof. Chow had stated that because Hansuki is a form Master Bill Chun Sr. put together under the supervision and approval of Prof. Chow, nothing to do with James Mitose or derived from James Mitose's system. Hansuki originated in Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo-the Chow/Chun connection and then was passed to Ralph Castro and Nick Cerio. Nick in turn passed it on to his brother Frank who passed it on to Fred Villari. Joe​

 

[marlon]

Prof. Shuras,
i would love to see it some time. Footwork can be interpreted in so many ways when you look at it with an open mind and good visualization...thanks for the reminder
be well

Respectfully,
Marlon