Chiang Nan/Channan; one of two precursors to the Pinan/Heian/Pyung Ahn form sets.

[SahBumNimRush]

In the episode of Human Weapon on Shuri-Te, they suggest that the Shuri-Te lineage is the purest form of Te in existance, i.e. the least influenced by Kung Fu. If this truly is the case, why are all the forms referenced or originated in CMA's? Also, if this is the case it would explain why the movements' mechanics are so different than those seen in Naha and Tomari lines.

 

[dancingalone]

In the episode of Human Weapon on Shuri-Te, they suggest that the Shuri-Te lineage is the purest form of Te in existance, i.e. the least influenced by Kung Fu. If this truly is the case, why are all the forms referenced or originated in CMA's? Also, if this is the case it would explain why the movements' mechanics are so different than those seen in Naha and Tomari lines.

Have you ever read the Shotokan's Secrets, Benjamin? The book by Bruce Clayton? It's rather controversial but the author argues that Shuri-Te was created as a bodyguard style to protect the Ryukyu royal family and thus that's where the emphasis on long range techniques and one shot-one kill power came from.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Have you ever read the Shotokan's Secrets, Benjamin? The book by Bruce Clayton? It's rather controversial but the author argues that Shuri-Te was created as a bodyguard style to protect the Ryukyu royal family and thus that's where the emphasis on long range techniques and one shot-one kill power came from.

No, I haven't, but I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the reference. That's an interesting viewpoint, and the Il-kyuk (one strike) philosophy is one the my Kwan Jang has always emphasized.. .

 

[dancingalone]

No, I haven't, but I'll have to check that out. Thanks for the reference. That's an interesting viewpoint, and the Il-kyuk (one strike) philosophy is one the my Kwan Jang has always emphasized.. .

It's a fast read. Mr. Clayton has some bunkai at the end of the book, but I didn't pay much attention to it. I found fascinating the first part where he writes about Commodore Perry's forced visit to Okinawa and where he unfolds his theory on the adaptation of Te by Matsumura Sokon Sensei and Itosu Anko Sensei to meet their bodyguarding needs. Not sure whether Mr. Clayton's theory is 'right' or not, but I liked the book on its own merits.

 

[Makalakumu]

Whatever you can find out and share would be appreciated!

Here was our Japanese teacher's reply.

Ossu, John

You always challenge and inspire me with these questions! Which I like it.
I think the Kanji used for these Kata depends on the schools and it seems like there are several
ways of writing. My school is Wado-Kai that is kind of the new version of Wado-Ryu.
Wado-Kai uses Katakana (that is one of three Japanese writing system and used mainly for
foreign origin words. Many English words that we adopted are spelled in Katakana.)
But sometime they used Kanji that means the similar to Half Claw Foot.

I will come to talk to you to explain with papers.


Hope you are having a great day,

When we discussed this further, she showed me three different ways of writing the kata. She surmised that different schools changed the kanji to suit their needs. One version could be read like half claw foot. She has no idea if this is an original version, but she suspects that the karate schools with more Chinese influence use the version in question. I'm having a sense that I am way over my head on this and that my cultural understanding what is happening is extremely shallow. The version she showed for her karate school is read as Half Eight. That's an important Zen number. What if the kanji for the kata were changed to fit the individual Sensei's tastes? Could you realistically draw any deeper meaning from the name at all?

It's an important issue that I'm not really skilled enough to discuss, but at least it appears on the surface that there is a connection between the names Half Claw Foot, Half White Crane, and the kata that we call Naihanchi.

 

[chinto]

OK, boys and girls, here is my understanding. Anko Itosu took from kusanku sho and kusanku dai, and created the Pinan kata's for the Okinawan School system in the very early 1900's. It seems that he taught different people slightly different versions. since then other styles have copied the kata, some it seems with slight differentiation, such as the Tamari styles use.. Shobayashi Shorin Ryu has a different take slightly then say Matsumura Seito, or Kobayashi. as to Naihanchi kata, my understanding is that shorin ryu got that from nana, so I would say its a version of a chinese kata. Chinto kata, was made by sohan 'bushi" Matsumura after he befriended a shipwrecked Chinese sailor. the sailor was stealing to survive and robbing to survive. Bushi Matsumura was sent to bring him in, and could not. so he befriended him, and learned from him. the Tamari version is very different then the shuri version. Shobayashi Shorin Ryu teaches the Tamari, and Matsumura Seito teaches the shuri versions. However the main influences on Okinawan Karate seem to be southern White Crane systems, and Monkfist boxing, and chaun fa ( fist way ). there may be some lesser influences from some other chinese systems but not nearly as much as those.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

However the main influences on Okinawan Karate seem to be southern White Crane systems, and Monkfist boxing, and chaun fa ( fist way ). there may be some lesser influences from some other chinese systems but not nearly as much as those.

This is what I always see references to. However, what I am seeking is an example or comparison between these styles and the Shuri Te lineage. We have examples to compare the Naha and Tomari Te to above mentioned Chinese systems, but personally, I have a hard time seeing a similarity between those Chinese systems and the Shuri line.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

OK, boys and girls, here is my understanding. Anko Itosu took from kusanku sho and kusanku dai...

Yes, I have read and I can see Kusanku in Itosu's Pinan katas. I have also read reference to Channan/Chiang Nan kata being the other source that Itosu drew from when creating the Pinan kata set. I am interested in discussing this form's roots and any information about this form.

 

[dancingalone]

This is what I always see references to. However, what I am seeking is an example or comparison between these styles and the Shuri Te lineage. We have examples to compare the Naha and Tomari Te to above mentioned Chinese systems, but personally, I have a hard time seeing a similarity between those Chinese systems and the Shuri line.

It's looking that way, isn't it, once we get past the rote history? Let's take the discussion along another path. Some of the Shorin-ryu styles actually teach Naihanchi as the first kata rather than the Pinan forms. Do we see any real differences in outcome when we compare karate-ka who learn Naihanchi first vs. those that started with the Pinan? Should there be a difference? If so, how do we go about trying to research it and measure it?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

It's looking that way, isn't it, once we get past the rote history? Let's take the discussion along another path. Some of the Shorin-ryu styles actually teach Naihanchi as the first kata rather than the Pinan forms. Do we see any real differences in outcome when we compare karate-ka who learn Naihanchi first vs. those that started with the Pinan? Should there be a difference? If so, how do we go about trying to research it and measure it?

I don't know anyone personally that started their practice with Naihanchi. However, I would imagine that there would be a completely different focus of foundational skills. The front stance focused Kicho hyungs and Pyung Ahn hyungs really focus on the ground reaction force and hip snap power generation for striking and blocking. The way in which I practice the Naihanchi forms focus on generating power from virtually no ground reaction force and very minimal waist/hip movement.

This is doesn't even mention the range of combat discrepancies between the two form sets. The Pyung Ahns are much more "long range" vs. the Naihanchi's "close quarter" combat techniques.

One possible reason that I see for learning the Naihanchis after Pinans is that after years of developing power from waist snapping movements, you can generate a great deal of power with minimal movement, making the techniques in the Naihanchi forms more effective from the beginning.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't know anyone personally that started their practice with Naihanchi. However, I would imagine that there would be a completely different focus of foundational skills. The front stance focused Kicho hyungs and Pyung Ahn hyungs really focus on the ground reaction force and hip snap power generation for striking and blocking. The way in which I practice the Naihanchi forms focus on generating power from virtually no ground reaction force and very minimal waist/hip movement.

This is doesn't even mention the range of combat discrepancies between the two form sets. The Pyung Ahns are much more "long range" vs. the Naihanchi's "close quarter" combat techniques.

One possible reason that I see for learning the Naihanchis after Pinans is that after years of developing power from waist snapping movements, you can generate a great deal of power with minimal movement, making the techniques in the Naihanchi forms more effective from the beginning.

I understand Shorinkan schools frequently teach Naihanchi ahead of the Pinan set. As do the Okinawan Kenpo people I know. I have observed the existence of close range practice in their students and I wonder if the early instruction of Naihanchi plays a leading role in that or whether it is merely an artifact or coincidence of earlier times.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I understand Shorinkan schools frequently teach Naihanchi ahead of the Pinan set. As do the Okinawan Kenpo people I know. I have observed the existence of close range practice in their students and I wonder if the early instruction of Naihanchi plays a leading role in that or whether it is merely an artifact or coincidence of earlier times.

The only Shuri line we have locally is Matsubayashi Ryu, and they start with the Fukyugata, then Pinan, and then Naihanchi series. I can see where the Okinawan Kenpo guys would benefit from Naihanchi first, since they tend to be more close range fighters. It does bring to mind the "chicken and the egg" conundrum. Are these forms practiced first because it is a more close range focused system? Or is it a short range focused system because of the Naihanchi katas? Or maybe just a coincidence (although I hardly doubt that it is a coincidence, at least in the early days of the ryu's inception).

 

[chinto]

in Shobayashi Shorin Ryu Naihachi katas are taught before the Pinan katas. I took that before I started the Matsumura Seito to go along with it. Matsumura seito is pure shuri-te. they teach Naihachi one kata at the same time as Pinan shodan, and Naihachi two kata when they teach pinan 2 and Naihachi 3, at the same time as Pinan 3, Then they teach last 2 Pinan kata after you know the 3 Naihachi kata.
shuri te teaches close in fighting as well as longer ranged, just as Goju teaches long range work to. Tamari te, which Shobayashi Is about 80% Tamari, teaches both too. I do not know of any okinawan art that does not teach both. But like Goju, Tamari and Shuri is about getting in close and finishing the fight quickly. Most people seem to learn to do tournament fighting, this tends to lean more towards long range fighting.. But there are a lot of close in techniques hidden in the kata of all the Okinawan styles.