Bunkai in Pyung Ahn O Dan (videos)

[NoSword]

Thanks for your thoughts. What do you think of the second clip?

It took a little bit, but after I played with it some, the application you've come up for the opening sequence makes sense. The arm lock following the middle block and reverse punch relates to the transition of the hands in prepration to deliver the next middle block and reverse punch quite well. Another use for the middle block reverse punch combo would be as a means of prentration to deliver the counter attack (reverse punch). In some instances an attacker may take a step forward when delivering an attack to the midline. By blocking in such a manner, you're allowed to maintain your position while moving the attacker's arm or leg off the line of attack. Ideally you have his lead hand outside of yours. This should leave you with a clean shot to either the floating ribs or solar plexus depending on your position relative to his which can be delivered with the reverse punch. Hopefully I've described what I'm talking about clear enough but if I haven't, I'll try to clarify further. For some reason which I don't know, I keep thinking that the middle block can also somehow be an overhook/arm tie up while the reverse punch serves a blow to the then unprotected side. Perhaps I'm just being stubbron though Good work with the application though, its nice to see people getting use out of even the trainsitions :ultracool

 

[Makalakumu]

It took a little bit, but after I played with it some, the application you've come up for the opening sequence makes sense. The arm lock following the middle block and reverse punch relates to the transition of the hands in prepration to deliver the next middle block and reverse punch quite well.

If you are familiar with the form, the opening sequence repeats on the other side. This indicates a couple of things. The first is that one could be using the movement to break the trapped arm. The second is that one is repeating the application when the uke punches with the left hand.

Another use for the middle block reverse punch combo would be as a means of prentration to deliver the counter attack (reverse punch). In some instances an attacker may take a step forward when delivering an attack to the midline. By blocking in such a manner, you're allowed to maintain your position while moving the attacker's arm or leg off the line of attack. Ideally you have his lead hand outside of yours. This should leave you with a clean shot to either the floating ribs or solar plexus depending on your position relative to his which can be delivered with the reverse punch. Hopefully I've described what I'm talking about clear enough but if I haven't, I'll try to clarify further.

I think that I see what you are saying. I would love to see some pics or a video of this.

For some reason which I don't know, I keep thinking that the middle block can also somehow be an overhook/arm tie up while the reverse punch serves a blow to the then unprotected side.

Good idea! You could probably start that application from the clinch. However, I think it may be harder to use the third move in the sequence. tsuri komi goshi sort of works with imagination, but I think I would just go for hosotogari.

Perhaps I'm just being stubbron though Good work with the application though, its nice to see people getting use out of even the trainsitions :ultracool

The transitions are almost always part of the applications in kata and most of the times, they are the coolest moves.

Another application worth considering is using the first move to block and grab to the outside of the wrist and the second move (the punch) is used to break the arm or bar it. The third move is a transition to a wrist lock/throw.

 

[mtabone]

The first video with the kids is interesting, though it is not a new concept, seen it a bunch of times.

The second video I do not care for at all... one could on the spear hand grab the leg and pull up, by going into the front stance on the spearhand like one does in the form, and then pull it back with ones hip and weight, like in the form, and then ones opponent is on the ground.


Applications of the forms are anything that works though, so if you like it, cool.

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone

 

[Makalakumu]

The first video with the kids is interesting, though it is not a new concept, seen it a bunch of times.

The second video I do not care for at all... one could on the spear hand grab the leg and pull up, by going into the front stance on the spearhand like one does in the form, and then pull it back with ones hip and weight, like in the form, and then ones opponent is on the ground.


Applications of the forms are anything that works though, so if you like it, cool.

Tang Soo!
Michael Tabone

I didn't want to sink that palm strike too deeply for uke's sake. Mostly, I just show that I can push and bend someone over to control the head. The leg grab is another application for the same move, however, like I said above, a good single leg take down takes uke and turns him toward the leg that is now up. I don't see that turn in the form. I've wondered if the downward action of the upper hand, if applied correctly, would compensate, but I've had trouble with it.

Of course, none of this is new. These are not new forms by any means. Do you practice these applications at your dojang? If so, how? Are they required for testing?

 

[NoSword]

If you are familiar with the form, the opening sequence repeats on the other side. This indicates a couple of things. The first is that one could be using the movement to break the trapped arm. The second is that one is repeating the application when the uke punches with the left hand.

I agree on both counts

I think that I see what you are saying. I would love to see some pics or a video of this.

I'll see what I can find. I don't have any training partners right now as I'm in between schools right now but perhaps there might be something on the internet. The only other idea I can come up with is trying to draw it but I'm not sure if people could bare with my crappy stick figures

The transitions are almost always part of the applications in kata and most of the times, they are the coolest moves.

Yes, they are, but at least in my experience a fair amount of people don't try to incorperate a lot of them into the applications they derive from the various forms.

Another application worth considering is using the first move to block and grab to the outside of the wrist and the second move (the punch) is used to break the arm or bar it. The third move is a transition to a wrist lock/throw.

Yeah, I can defiently see that in there. Somewhat similar to a possible application that can be derived from the opening sequence giecho hyung sahm bu.

 

[mtabone]

Hello Upnorthkyosa.

You asked:

”Do you practice these applications at your dojang? If so, how? Are they required for testing?”

No they are not required for testing (as in grading). But we do practice applying the forms to situations. Trying to see how many reliably feasible applications a movement or series of movements can have. Though this is a personal testing of understanding we put the forms though, not a structured one, it would take everything good about the process away if it was structured. We also practice when doing hyung to imagine targets and opponents to fight against.

For instance, every time I do Pyung Ahn O Dan, I do not let my mind set up what I am doing to my opponent, I just let it happen. Forms, like any thing else, including the il soo suk of old (that you have gone on and on about how you do not like), are just principles. That is all. Real life is not about following set one of this set, and ending up at the end at step 10. It will change depending on a thousand and one different factors, all different everytime. No two fights/attacks/kicks/practices … will ever be the same, they are in constant change; a state of constant uniqueness. The principles of blocking, side stepping, hips, deflection, movement, are all principles, ones you ingrain these principles, then you can just “let it happen”.

Application of technique in forms is great. As long as it works for you, it works.

Tang Soo!!

Michael Tabone

BTW- You also said :

“I've wondered if the downward action of the upper hand, if applied correctly, would compensate, but I've had trouble with it.”


on the last move of P.A. O Dan, in the form, we keep our right hand near the left shoulder when executing that front stance, so when we pull the weight back to back stance it goes down to a low block position above the right knee, with our left hand behind our head (arm 90 degree angel). With this set up, my right hand is protecting my body/face as I come in, grab the groined/leg/pant and as I pull back my left hand, my right hand come across my opponents shoulder/chest taking them right down. I am 5’6’’ and I do this to students who shorter then me and are as tall as 6’2’’. (I would try it on taller people too, but that is as tall as we got at my studio )

 

[Makalakumu]

Michael

I've been thinking about this post for a while and here are a few thoughts...

1. Reality changes and flows and that fixed patterns are impractical when woven into this framework. Kata, however, are training tools, not reality. One can imagine themselves doing technique with intent in kata, but this is not the same thing as a self-defense situation. It is training. Bunkai, are possibilities, things that could be done. The end result is that they train the reflexes so that they react to certain cues. This process eventually will occur without thought so that if something doesn't work, the body does something else.

2. The "mind of no mind" described above is not automatic. I don't know if you have played any other sports, but there are some insights with that training that are helpful. In baseball, learning how to catch a ball was the first step in learning how to play the field. In golf, learning how to hold the club and swing was a very important piece of playing the game. In wrestling, learning how to bridge was a foundation for number of things. In boxing, throwing a good jab is important. None of these things are the whole sport or art, but all of them required structure, repetition, and eventually situational adaptation in order to learn well enough to do without thought. Why should the forms be any different?

3. There needs to be a formalized way of teaching bunkai in kata in order to use it effectively as self defense. One must practice a move repeatedly in order to improve the technique and make it automatic. One must learn how to apply this automatic technique in a random situation correctly. One must learn to adapt so they can change to other things when something doesn't work. There are training methods for all of these things and I don't think that "playing with" certain applications every so often is going to achieve those ends by itself. It would be like walking up to a heavy bag and throwing a few punches and kicks once every week or so. That will not prepare someone (well) to actually punch and kick in reality.

4. An example of a formalized system for learning bunkai is the following...

a. The first thing a teacher must teach is a set of basics that corresponds to each kata. One that will allow a student to see and perform certain techniques therein and improve things like physical conditioning, balance, and efficiency of movement. Stances, transitions, punches, kicks, joint locks, throws, etc are all part of certain katas. This would be akin to throwing and catching a ball, swinging a bat, and running and sliding in baseball.

b. One learns the kata, memorizing the moves and details, and is able to perform it.

c. Traditional applications should be used as an example to teach anatomical knowledge and application mechanics...yet this information should be open ended. The student should eventually begin to "play" with the moves under the tutelage of the instructor, who gives insights into their multiple meanings. The teacher does not spoon-feed alternative applications, but rather gives clues and hints so that the student learns how to interpret the movements for themselves. The goal is for the student to learn the possibilities of each technique and understand their situational nature from a multifaceted point of view (this is the beauty of kata IMHO).

d. The true nature of kata is that they are a set of drills strung together by the creator so they can easily remember/transport/transfer practical knowledge regarding self-defense techniques. It is important for a student to eventually learn these because they provide a basis for understanding. Kata are not limited to these though (and I know many people who would disagree with that). Every student is different. They have different bodies and things work differently. The student must develop a set of drills that work with their body types...ones that they can practice repeatedly and relentlessly.

e. The student must learn how to apply in a "live" situation. Drills only take a student so far and eventually the student must transcend them. Application should "flow" from a student without thought and without hesitation and with no regard for "proper" context in the sense that one "waits" for certain things to happen. Drilled techniques need to be modified "on the fly" and altered to fit the situation at hand. This is a process of controlling the rules in sparring/randori/grappling and gradually removing them...but not removing so many that the training becomes overly dangerous.

5. There are many other ways of using kata and each will deliver certain results. However, if one believes that kata are a central part of an art and that they are useful for self-defense, a system that resembles what is outline above is needed in order to use them most effectively.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Miles]

Does tkd do any kata with the "stacked fist" movement? If so, then this lock is probably in the art. What I like about that arm bar is that it can change into so many things if you miss the initial bar.

The "stacked fist" is "khuen doltzeogi" and is seen throughout the 2nd dan poomsae "Keumgang" in Kukki-TKD. It is interpreted as a throw utilizing the high hand as grabbing the uke's hair/head and the low hand as grabbing the chin.

Miles

 

[Makalakumu]

The "stacked fist" is "khuen doltzeogi" and is seen throughout the 2nd dan poomsae "Keumgang" in Kukki-TKD. It is interpreted as a throw utilizing the high hand as grabbing the uke's hair/head and the low hand as grabbing the chin.

Miles

I've heard of that one, but I haven't tried it. Do you practice this throw very much? Does that throw feel very natural?

 

[mtabone]

Hello Upnorhtkyosa,

You posted:

"Michael

I've been thinking about this post for a while and here are a few thoughts...

1. Reality changes and flows and that fixed patterns are impractical when woven into this framework. Kata, however, are training tools, not reality. One can imagine themselves doing technique with intent in kata, but this is not the same thing as a self-defense situation. It is training. Bunkai, are possibilities, things that could be done. The end result is that they train the reflexes so that they react to certain cues. This process eventually will occur without thought so that if something doesn't work, the body does something else.

2. The "mind of no mind" described above is not automatic. I don't know if you have played any other sports, but there are some insights with that training that are helpful. In baseball, learning how to catch a ball was the first step in learning how to play the field. In golf, learning how to hold the club and swing was a very important piece of playing the game. In wrestling, learning how to bridge was a foundation for number of things. In boxing, throwing a good jab is important. None of these things are the whole sport or art, but all of them required structure, repetition, and eventually situational adaptation in order to learn well enough to do without thought. Why should the forms be any different? "

Then we are in agreement on this thing, it is as I said in my first post. And the “mind of no mind” is a principle I teach and incorporate everyday in my training. I believe each student needs to take the time to create the application of technique that works for them, and discovering all the other myriad of possibilities. Though it is not every case (but often enough it is) when you teach a application of a technique, the student has no more work to do in their minds, and they don’t have to figure it out for themselves, or if that is the “only” answer. They mostly only do the minimum. Forms and applications of forms are a creative process, using imagination, ingenuity, and learning from trial and errors. I will help people if they ask me what a particular move might mean or does, but I will ask them they have to show me three other applications for that move in return…If I don’t, that is it, and the minimum is done. See, most of our student are just that, students. They have lives, families, jobs… time is a factor. I myself teach martial arts. I have a little free time on my hands so I can afford to think of this idea or that idea. But if I give them the key, they will not be able to unlock the door themselves.

As for: 3-4

“3. There needs to be a formalized way of teaching bunkai in kata in order to use it effectively as self defense. One must practice a move repeatedly in order to improve the technique and make it automatic. One must learn how to apply this automatic technique in a random situation correctly. One must learn to adapt so they can change to other things when something doesn't work. There are training methods for all of these things and I don't think that "playing with" certain applications every so often is going to achieve those ends by itself. It would be like walking up to a heavy bag and throwing a few punches and kicks once every week or so. That will not prepare someone (well) to actually punch and kick in reality.”

Besides my answer for this response above let me say this. Visualization of a technique on an opponent might first start off as an idea in a form, but I always try it on a partner or pad (depending if I don’t need to be complicated). I might have found 9 possibilities for the opening move in P.A. O Dan and depending on where my mind goes it will visualize one of those nine, or perhaps a new one, which of course will be tried out multiple times, on multiple opponents over a long period of time.

For 5:

5. There are many other ways of using kata and each will deliver certain results. However, if one believes that kata are a central part of an art and that they are useful for self-defense, a system that resembles what is outline above is needed in order to use them most effectively.

We are talking about Tang Soo Do right? If we are big on tradition then lets not use terms from other cultures, nations, etc. They are hyungs.

Besides that, I agree with everything except that last line. I agree that hyungs are a central part of the art and that they are useful for self-defense. I do not agree they need to be systematically broken down to its finer parts so that all the discovery, of hyung AND OF SELF are broken with it.

Upnorthkyosa, I respect you, what you are doing, and the art of Tang Soo Do, as you and I in this art are brothers. I just don’t agree with you on this part of TSD. So with that…

Let me shout:

TANG SOO!!!
Michael Tabone

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks for your comments, Michael. Your questions really helped clarify some things for me and they forced me to put it down on paper. Someday, I hope I have the opportunity to show you what I'm thinking.

 

[oldnewbie]

Upnorth,

For what it's worth..

I know your asking for TSD interpretations, but here's what I see from my shotokan eyes....

Opening move is an inside block with what "could" be a reverse punch, .. a response to a puch...(by the way, are you leaning back on that move??)

Ending move, I see a groin grab, pulling the "jewels" towards you as you chop against the natural flow.... of course our stance would put us lower.....

Again just my 2 cents....

 

[Miles]

I've heard of that one, but I haven't tried it. Do you practice this throw very much? Does that throw feel very natural?

No, we start the throw but don't follow through in practice because I don't want anyone getting their neck broken.

Miles

 

[JWLuiza]

Here is one interpretation that my students learn. The uke punches and the tori sidesteps, parries, and strikes to the short ribs. The tori then grabs the uke by the shoulder and catches the ukes arm in the crook of his arm. Twisting the hips, the tori winds his arm around, leading with the elbow twisting the ukes arm into a classic chicken wing.

Great idea for your bunkai. I feel that it looks a bit smoother if you change the chicken wing to a classic armbar. After the punch to the midsection both hands grab the wrist. The clockwise movement of the hands from left to right hip will produce an offbalancing of the attacker as well as bringing the focal point of the technique underneath your center (the best place for the fulcrum to be!).

I appreciate your hard work in this endeavor!!! Thank you for your additions to TSD!

 

[karatekid1975]

Off topic ... Hey John! Nice to see ya here

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is the video for Pyung Ahn O Dan. Check out the rest of the moves in the form and let us know what you see...

http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/jk_pyungahnodan.avi

 

[aricept]

My school generally performs this movement as a palm heel to either the groin or inner thigh, or a ridge hand to the groin for better force application. The striking hand grabs the inner pant leg near the knee, and uses the combined effort of a) the front leg sweeping inward, b) the body weight shifting back, c) the striking hand pulling back and up, and d) the other hand sweeping forward to the chest and down. It essentially upends them in place.

Hard to describe in text. If I had a video camera and a willing throw dummy, I'd show you. : /

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is a video of a demonstration of bunkai for pyung ahn o dan. The Shorin Ryu version is very close to our so much of these are going to be applicable to what we do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOEXtm52FlE&search=Pinan%20Kata