Chi Sau Training Progression / TST Lineage

[mook jong man]

Methods used to teach Chi Sau in our lineage.
These guys train directly under TST in Hong Kong and do a great job of explaining everything.

[video=youtube_share;YmcegjzmUq4]http://youtu.be/YmcegjzmUq4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;vCqz0TxMty4]http://youtu.be/vCqz0TxMty4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;JNiiTAb5waE]http://youtu.be/JNiiTAb5waE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;WMvldgGMkcA]http://youtu.be/WMvldgGMkcA[/video]

[video=youtube_share;odyg82cvIbg]http://youtu.be/odyg82cvIbg[/video]

[video=youtube_share;E7jL7z1l7oE]http://youtu.be/E7jL7z1l7oE[/video]

[video=youtube_share;pei68XwKiIc]http://youtu.be/pei68XwKiIc[/video]

 

[OzPaul]

I considered going to this school when i was in Hong Kong last year. I did not go however as i had already made arrangements to train elsewhere. Video's are interesting.

 

[J W]

Thanks for the videos, I'm always curious what the curricula of other schools/lineages are like. The progression is similar but a bit different at our school (Moy Yat lineage), we start new students with Pak Sao, followed by Pak Da and Lop Da. We then move on to single hand Don Chi Sao followed by Luk Sao, Jip Sao "catching hands", Jip Sao/Jow Sao "catching/running hands", Toi Ma "push-horse" and then finally full fledge Chi Sao. I'm currently working on Toi Ma, should be ready for some full-on Chi Sao in a couple months.

 

[Eric_H]

Methods used to teach Chi Sau in our lineage.
These guys train directly under TST in Hong Kong and do a great job of explaining everything.

I liked the guy as a presenter, and it follows some of the same logic flow as when I did moy yat WC.

I do have a number of bones to pick with the structure and the approach as it starts with "these are the techniques, lets drill them" whereas in HFY we started with "Why would you even do these techniques in the first place?" It's a matter of if cause/effect is in the forefront of chi sao or not.

 

[wtxs]

No bones to pick, great overall presentation.

I'm just a little concerned of how the bong is drilled. At 0:30 of the chi sao stage 6, he said " rigid upward force" using (looks to me) an lifting motion, maybe he is showing the student the incremental steps leading to the forward/drilling motion, which brings us to around 0:55 ... the forward bong structure/pressure look more like the lan sao pressing/pushing, being "top heavy" lend itself to easily be unbalance and falls forward.

I would like to see people place more emphasis in moving/stepping while chi sao once they had gotten pass the "necessary" basics, train the body as an unit, it does go a long ways towards building mobility and balance, important elements in a fight.

 

[geezer]

...in HFY we started with "Why would you even do these techniques in the first place?" It's a matter of if cause/effect is in the forefront of chi sao or not.

I'm on lunch at work, so I can't access the videos --so no comment there. But Eric, I do agree that the question you pose is one we always need to ask ourselves.

 

[J W]

I liked the guy as a presenter, and it follows some of the same logic flow as when I did moy yat WC.

I do have a number of bones to pick with the structure and the approach as it starts with "these are the techniques, lets drill them" whereas in HFY we started with "Why would you even do these techniques in the first place?" It's a matter of if cause/effect is in the forefront of chi sao or not.

How is Chi Sao approached in HFY? Are there different "stages" taught, or is there a different approach altogether?

 

[geezer]

OK, I got home and watched the whole set. In some ways we train similarly, in other aspects not so much. We do absolutely stress relaxation and "riding" rather than resisting the opponent's force, but we don't make use of the "circular structure" analogy, especially as articulated in the first dan-chi video. The biggest difference is that our lineage stresses that you must develop a constant springy force directed at your opponents center. If you have this spring and are very loose and relaxed, you will either A. slip free and strike, or B. when you encounter opposing force, you will stick, and your opponent will physically bend your arm into bong or tan. Your opponent's energy makes your defense.

In the group I train with now, we follow a curriculum similar to what WT folks use, especially in Europe. In addition to the forms, we use a program of paired drills (lat-sau) that leads into dan-chi, poon-sau and then a serious of choreographed chi-sau "sections" (or as I call them, "guided conversations") which explore different aspects of double-arm chi sau. Different sections integrate different techniques and applications from the forms, different ranges, and use a lot of footwork. Then of course there are free-form exchanges with varying degrees of speed and pressure.

Then I mess around with my Eskrima brothers, going from chi-sau to hubud, to grappling, to whatever ...but that's just me doing my thing. Those guys are a little more open to trying different stuff than some of my WC contacts. That's where I met a former student of Eric's who was a great guy to work with. Didn't take anything without testing it. ...Haven't seen him in a long time. Too bad.

BTW, I agree that the sifu did a very good presentation, and seems like a first class instructor.

 

[mook jong man]

No bones to pick, great overall presentation.

I'm just a little concerned of how the bong is drilled. At 0:30 of the chi sao stage 6, he said " rigid upward force" using (looks to me) an lifting motion, maybe he is showing the student the incremental steps leading to the forward/drilling motion, which brings us to around 0:55 ... the forward bong structure/pressure look more like the lan sao pressing/pushing, being "top heavy" lend itself to easily be unbalance and falls forward.

I would like to see people place more emphasis in moving/stepping while chi sao once they had gotten pass the "necessary" basics, train the body as an unit, it does go a long ways towards building mobility and balance, important elements in a fight.

Just to explain this one a bit further.
Wtxs , in that video he is not doing a Bong Sau , although I can see how you would think that if you didn't know the purpose of the exercise.
What he is trying to do is mimic a hard style rising block used in other martial arts and the pressing forward is him trying to give the student some resistance to work with.
In our lineage when someone blocks our punch we immediately latch their arm down and hit them with the other hand.

 

[wtxs]

Just to explain this one a bit further.
Wtxs , in that video he is not doing a Bong Sau , although I can see how you would think that if you didn't know the purpose of the exercise.
What he is trying to do is mimic a hard style rising block used in other martial arts and the pressing forward is him trying to give the student some resistance to work with.
In our lineage when someone blocks our punch we immediately latch their arm down and hit them with the other hand.

Got it ... sorry about the 1 tracked WC mind set. Just I have never used or encountered an rising horizontal block as illustrated, speaking as an black belt in my 1st hard style rooted in Tong Soo Do. The rising block is dome with an upward cutting/drilling motion similar to the bong on an different angle.

 

[mook jong man]

Got it ... sorry about the 1 tracked WC mind set. Just I have never used or encountered an rising horizontal block as illustrated, speaking as an black belt in my 1st hard style rooted in Tong Soo Do. The rising block is dome with an upward cutting/drilling motion similar to the bong on an different angle.

Could also be done against a block going up at an angle , or against the other arm , or even a totally untrained person just bringing their arm up to stop getting hit in the face.

The crucial part is that there is an arm out there for us to latch down.
What he is doing basically , is just giving the student some sort of resistance by holding the arm up there semi rigidly.
Once they can cope with that then you would go into all the permutations of resistance that you might encounter such as lateral blocks or blocks done at an angle.

 

[Eric_H]

How is Chi Sao approached in HFY? Are there different "stages" taught, or is there a different approach altogether?

There are a couple points of entry for chi sao, as we have a few different platforms, but really you can start with any of the three: Kiu Sao Chi Sao, Chi Kiu Chi Sao, Tan/Bong/Fuk Chi Sao.

For T/B/F, we start with the technologies that define how we look at the space as well as the language to describe the leverage points. (5-line theory, 4 gate Tien Yan Dei, Jong Sao Tien Yan Dei)

Then we move on to conditionals based on the leverage points and what they let you have or not. For example, in single hand, if i pull the opponent's hand into me for loi-lau hoi sung, giving up my structure (similar to how some YM schools do dan chi sao) how can i keep my elbow alive (5-line theory), and how can i move myself back to a place where i have structure? (Answer, vertical movement on 4-gate TYD ruleset)

We're looking to define cause/effect on the structural rules more than anything. ie: When I have X and Y but not Z, what does that mean?

Clear as mud?