Chi Sao- Crossing the bridge

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, it is difficult to answer without being there and actually having you try this on me...but based solely on what you have typed, I can tell you that basic WC principes would tell me/my body/limbs to move forward as you pull. As the punch enters into range, I would most likely jam it. I know that sounds vague but these sort of discussions are difficult via a forum.
Thanks.

I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou. I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be. Some people may

- use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
- use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
- drop his elbow straight toward his opponent's chest,
- ...

If someone grabs my wrist, I'll rotate my hand and grab back on his wrist instead. So to reverse my wrist grabbing will be my "1st reaction".

 

[Kwan Sau]

I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou.

You are correct, but mostly from present day "Masters" and "Grandmasters". Have a look around at the more famous of these and you'll see that they tend to grab on with both hands so that the young buck they are chi sau'ing with can't "embarass" them. Sickening really.

I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be. Some people may

- use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
- use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
- drop his elbow straight toward his opponent's chest,
- ...

If someone grabs my wrist, I'll rotate my hand and grab back on his wrist instead. So to reverse my wrist grabbing will be my "1st reaction".

To your above three options:
1) not me
2) perhaps, but other hand
3) perhaps (depends on where grab is, and other variables)

A WC saying I've heard is: "when hands are tied up, use the legs". So, if you were to grab both of my hands/wrists, etc...I'd kick you in the balls.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou. I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be. Some people may

- use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
- use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
- drop his elbow straight toward his opponent's chest,
- ...

If someone grabs my wrist, I'll rotate my hand and grab back on his wrist instead. So to reverse my wrist grabbing will be my "1st reaction".

My personal strategy of when people grab my arms is to thank them for setting up my lock/throw which is what I assume you would be doing as well Wang.

 

[mook jong man]

Assuming that we are working from chi sau in this hypothetical.
A wrist grab doesn't just materialise out of thin air , there has to be some preparation movement to get to that point , as with any other trap.

There will be a change in the rhythm and the flow of energy , a slight change in muscular tension that you perceive from the opponent , these signs will tell you that an attempted trap is imminent or maybe a grab.
That is the time to counter these things , not when the grip has been consolidated.

In the type of chi sau I am familiar with , conventional grabbing using the thumb is not really used , apart from being too damn slow compared to open handed pinning movements and wrist latching.

It also takes longer to disengage from the limb in case you have to use that hand to defend against an incoming strike , but anyway I digress.

Assuming that I haven't been able to dissolve the attack in it's infancy so to speak and I have been wrist grabbed then there are many options available.

Leaving out all the variables for a moment such as , am I being pulled , pushed , is he grabbing and punching with the other hand etc.
The simplest thing in the world to do is just punch straight through the centerline with the other hand the instant you are grabbed . In all but the very best people there will usually be a weakness on the opposite arm that is not applying the technique , for a brief moment their force will be uneven as their brain concentrates on the arm doing the attack.

If you are being held from moving into punching range , then snap kick the groin , medium heel kick the bladder , low heel kick the knee/shin.
Hell , do all three in quick succession.

These are simple and very basic , if you want to get fancy you can use other things like simply cutting down with your arm through the weakest part of their grip , their thumb.

You can also rotate your arm at the same time as you pull it back , this breaks the grip and pulls them into a simultaneous punch and kick.
You can utilise the fulcrum effect and break the grab by rotating your elbow over their arm , aiming for the centerline and striking the sternum with the point of your elbow , also posssibly breaking his wrist depending on hard he wants to hold on.

There's also a combined , leg lock , arm break and throw , there are hundreds of these things.
So the answer is what's your first reaction when being grabbed.

The answer is how long is a piece of string?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

if you were to grab both of my hands/wrists, etc...I'd kick you in the balls.

Try this with your training partner.

- You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
- Your opponent kicks you.
- You use a "fast downward" pull/shake on him.

Try this 10 times and see how many times that your opponent's kick can reach to your body.

If my opponent has grips on me, he can release his grips anytime that he wants to. I have to deal with his grips first before I can do anything on him. When I try to deal with his grips, he tries to do something else on me. He is already one step ahead of me. This is why my "1st reaction" to wrist grip is to reverse the situation and grip on my opponent's wrist instead. I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like to let my opponent to put me into "defense" mode.

 

[yak sao]

In WC Chi Shou, what will be your 1st reaction if your opponent grabs your wrist?

Punch him in the face

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My personal strategy of when people grab my arms is to thank them for setting up my lock/throw which is what I assume you would be doing as well Wang.

If your opponent uses neck tie on you, he just gives you a free arm control. Your arm control can be more powerful than his neck tie. But the wrist grip is different. The wrist grip is a set up for something else. The moment that you pay attention on your opponent's wrist grip, the moment that you may just fall into his "set up".

IMO, you should try very hard not to let your opponent to grab you. In case that happens, you should do the following:

- Rotate your hand in the direction that against his thumb - to break his grip and grip back on him.
- Raise your elbow and drop your elbow straight into his chest - a very power attack.

Any other reaction will be too slow. When you have a fish on your fishing hook, whether you want to let that fist go (by cutting the fishing line) is up to you. It's not up to the fish.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Punch him in the face

- Your opponent's right hand grabs on your right wrist.
- Your left hand punch at his face.
- His right hand pulls your right arm to your left across your body, and spin your body to your left.
- Your own right arm will jam your own left arm.
- Your left hand will not be able to reach to his face.

When your opponent grabs your wrist, he can do this to you, but you can't do this to him (when you try to do this to him, he can let go his grip - he has hook on you. You don't have hook on him). That will be his advantage.

 

[drop bear]

There is a whole bunch of wrestling solutions to wrist grabs. No idea if it will work for chi sao.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yVKDdc086zI

 

[geezer]

If your opponent uses neck tie on you, he just gives you a free arm control. Your arm control can be more powerful than his neck tie. But the wrist grip is different. The wrist grip is a set up for something else. The moment that you pay attention on your opponent's wrist grip, the moment that you may just fall into his "set up".

IMO, you should try very hard not to let your opponent to grab you. In case that happens, you should do the following:

- Rotate your hand in the direction that against his thumb - to break his grip and grip back on him.
- Raise your elbow and drop your elbow straight into his chest - a very power attack.

Both of the above are common responses to a wrist grab in WC. There are many other possibilities as well depending on the nature of the grab --a pull? a push?a jolt? a cross arm-drag? In the practice of chi-sau, a grab is not anything special. When your opponent grabs your arm, he doesn't gain any net advantage. By grabbing and fastening onto your wrist he limits his own options as well as yours. As the saying goes, "when he grabs your wrist you both become one-armed men!"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"when he grabs your wrist you both become one-armed men!"

That's true. But he can become 2 arms man fast than you can.

 

[blindsage]

I assume the "wrist grabbing" will happen a lot in Chi Shou. I just like to see how other people's "1st reaction" may be. Some people may

- use the other hand to break that wrist grip,
- use the other hand to grab his opponent's wrist grabbing arm,
- drop his elbow straight toward his opponent's chest,
- ...

If someone grabs my wrist, I'll rotate my hand and grab back on his wrist instead. So to reverse my wrist grabbing will be my "1st reaction".

Way too focused on hands. Someone grabs your wrist you should thank them for occupying that hand. The other 90% of your body is free to embarrass him for grabbing you.

 

[mook jong man]

Punch him in the face

That reminds me of something funny that happened years ago.
I was at a friends house , and his young son who was aged about two or three at the time thought it would be amusing to pick up his toys and throw them at me.

After dodging various cars , trucks , power ranger figures etc he decided to come in closer to have a go , and with his hand poised to unleash another projectile at my head I quickly grabbed his wrist and told him in no uncertain terms to stop it.
In frustration he punched at the back of my hand about 10 times with his free hand in a rapid fire fashion , saw it had no effect , so he switched targets and punched me right in the face.

Of course I let go , it was a pretty good shot for a toddler , that kid is probably about 21 years old now , so I'm thinking its probably time for a bit of payback lol.

 

[Marnetmar]

An over the top wrist grab can be countered by rolling the elbow over the other dude's arm not unlike the move in Biu Jee. Or one could simply swipe their hand under and over (or over and under) the opponent's wrist much like the wrist movements in Biu Jee.

If both wrists are grabbed, cross one wrist over the other and roll underneath and over the top (some lineages use this as the opening to their sil lim tao form), if done correctly one can go straight into WC's man sau-wu sau "guard" stance and already be on the guy's outside with both of his hands there as well, making a tackle very difficult. If a hand is being grabbed and held high, the same elbow roll applies.

 

[yak sao]

To say "this is what I would do if someone grabbed my wrist during chi sau..." is only fooling yourself.
There are too many variables.
Is it a strong grab, a weak grab. Crossing energy, pulling or pushing energy. pushing.

Depending, you could use huen sau, kau sau, bong sau, biu bong sau, lop sau, tan sau, tak sau, shoulder strike, elbow strike.................and this is only on the side that was grabbed, you still have a limitless amount of options with the other hand depending on what's going on with that.

I maintain my original answer, punch him in the face. In other words, do the simplest thing that will allow you to hit him.

 

[mook jong man]

To say "this is what I would do if someone grabbed my wrist during chi sau..." is only fooling yourself.
There are too many variables.
Is it a strong grab, a weak grab. Crossing energy, pulling or pushing energy. pushing.

Depending, you could use huen sau, kau sau, bong sau, biu bong sau, lop sau, tan sau, tak sau, shoulder strike, elbow strike.................and this is only on the side that was grabbed, you still have a limitless amount of options with the other hand depending on what's going on with that.

I maintain my original answer, punch him in the face. In other words, do the simplest thing that will allow you to hit him.

Its actually the first thing we used to teach beginners before they started learning any of the more advanced arm grab counters.
Just a simple centerline punch to the face with the free hand.

People always seem to want to do something fancy and tend to overlook the most simple things.

 

[Kwan Sau]

Try this with your training partner.

- You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
- Your opponent kicks you.
- You use a "fast downward" pull/shake on him.

Try this 10 times and see how many times that your opponent's kick can reach to your body.

If my opponent has grips on me, he can release his grips anytime that he wants to. I have to deal with his grips first before I can do anything on him. When I try to deal with his grips, he tries to do something else on me. He is already one step ahead of me. This is why my "1st reaction" to wrist grip is to reverse the situation and grip on my opponent's wrist instead. I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like to let my opponent to put me into "defense" mode.

To each his own dude.

 

[Marnetmar]

To each his own dude.

Since when is this a valid statement at all?

 

[mook jong man]

Try this with your training partner.

- You grab both of your opponent's wrists.
- Your opponent kicks you.
- You use a "fast downward" pull/shake on him.

Try this 10 times and see how many times that your opponent's kick can reach to your body.

If my opponent has grips on me, he can release his grips anytime that he wants to. I have to deal with his grips first before I can do anything on him. When I try to deal with his grips, he tries to do something else on me. He is already one step ahead of me. This is why my "1st reaction" to wrist grip is to reverse the situation and grip on my opponent's wrist instead. I like to put my opponent in "defense" mode. I don't like to let my opponent to put me into "defense" mode.

You wont be able to use a downward shake on him , because he would already be in the process of levering down through your thumbs and simultaneously kicking.

Most people have probably trained at schools like mine where we go through extensive reflex training involving random arm grabs , throat grabs , lapel grabs etc.
You can reach a level of skill where the counter has already commenced before the grip is even fully completed , we spend a large percentage of the time in chi sau countering some very fast and sophisticated trapping techniques where you are pinned and a strike is launched at your face from very short range at a million miles per hour.

Do you really and truly think that we wont be able to sense when somebody is trying something as cumbersome as attempting to grab our wrists?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you really and truly think that we wont be able to sense when somebody is trying something as cumbersome as attempting to grab our wrists?

You can always use punch to set up your grab.

Not too long ago, I met a very famous WC master (I train WC myself too).

- I punched him with my right hand,
- he blocked with his right arm (his forearm contacted with my forearm),
- my right hand slide down from his right forearm to his right wrist,
- my left hand moved to his right elbow,
- he ...

Not only my right hand could grab on his right wrist, my left hand could also control his right elbow. I used my punch to set up my wrist control. I didn't just grab ...