Chen and Yang styles are different?

[grydth]

Marlon,

Xue Sheng has pretty much summed it up very well. There is a huge disparity in Yang style teaching and I agree with Xue's take on how that came about. However the current Yang family do teach the martial side and they tend to call their system Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan to distinguish from much of the rubbish masquerading as Yang style. The current form (taught by Yang Zhen Ji, Yang Zhen Duo and Yang Jun) is exactly what Yang Cheng-fu left us as his final form. This can be proved by looking at films of Yang Shaou Hou, Chen Wei Ming, Fu Zhong Wen and Tung Ying Chieh. Cheng fu said of this final form "That is it. It cannot be improved upon. To change one thing would be to lose the essence of the form" . Cheng Manching of course did just that!!!!

Very best wishes

This quote deserves it's own thread to discuss. I will start one.

 

[marlon]

does Yang family style teach silk reeling? What exactly is silk reeling? Does CMC style teach silk reeling.
btw i have recently seen some Chen taiji vids from the web..it was like returning home...such bbeauty and power grace...truth...i love it

marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

does Yang family style teach silk reeling? What exactly is silk reeling? Does CMC style teach silk reeling.
btw i have recently seen some Chen taiji vids from the web..it was like returning home...such bbeauty and power grace...truth...i love it

marlon

The Chen family is big on Silk reeling and if you train with Kwan Sai Hung (in his late 80s and a real live Taoist) who is one of the last living students of Yang Chengfu you will also learn silk reeling but I have not heard that the Yang family is teaching it.

However East Winds could better answer that question than I.

I do know a CMC style teacher and I will see him this week, I can ask him if CMC trains silk reeling.

Tai Chi Silk Reeling

Silk Reeling
http://www.answers.com/silk reeling

EDIT:
sorry, I forgot to add this before

Double Hand Reeling Silk Excercise by Chen Xiaowang
http://www.tai-chi-centre.com/reeling.htm

 

[marlon]

so silk reeling is a nei qong exercise and used in expressing power?
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

so silk reeling is a nei qong exercise and used in expressing power?
marlon

It is also, from a Chen stand point, teaching you how to use your intention to move qi to move your body instead of muscular movement as well.

If you can get a hold of a video of any of the Chen family doing silk reeling and then watch one of them do the form you will see it is very much a part of Chen Taiji.

If you do a silk reeling exercise and say just swing your arm in a circle it is not silk reeling. It is relaxed movement but not soft it is flowing and not choppy and it teaches some Taiji basics as far as the Chen family is concerned and it helps link the legs the waist and the arms as well as other things

If you can do silk reeling you will find it easier to understand jing and fajing as well. This doesn't mean that you will be a master of it just you will have a better idea of what it is and how it works. It can also help with sandao as well. Or at least that was my experience with it.

Also somewhere I have a book form the Chen family, I believe in it they discuss silk reeling, if you like I will look to see what they say about it and PM you the pertinent bits, as well as the title of the book.

It has been a while since I trained silk reeling but you are currently contributing to me seriously considering starting it again, Thanks :asian:

 

[marlon]

thank you XS. i have seen the silk reeling on a chen site...taijichen.com i think. I hope you do find the book. I notice the Chen's seem to emphasize more that the forms and the postures help one to react / respond as needed i.e. according to the prinicples of taiji rather than saying that the form is taiji as it is implied elsewhere and they seem less concerned by variant forms. Even to the point of saying make sure it stands the test of time more than anything else. Also, they tend to refer to the 13 postures and the taiji classics as standards of taiji rather than even thier own family forms. Interesting difference. But the forms are beautiful. The site i saw was from a teacher in NZ.
respectfully,
Marlon

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

"does Yang family style teach silk reeling? "

Such a simple question. Such a complicated answer :erg:

Chansijin (Silk Reeling) is an integral part of Chen style training. The Yang Family do not train this. They do however train Chousi (Drawing Silk). However you will note that Chousi lacks the jin element, which is why what the Yangs do is different from what the Chens do. Yang Zhen Duo has said that the main energy in Yang style is Pung and there is no comaprison with Chansijin. He says if all the emphasis was on Chansijin, then Chen and Yang would be the same.
However (isn't there always a "however"!!!!!

), there is a school of thought which says that Chansi and Chousi are merely different expressions of the same thing. And yet others say the Chansi is used in the issuing of energy whilst Chousi is used in the gathering of energy. All true systems of Taijiquan will, or should, express at least Chousi. Chansi being seen as belonging exclusively to the Chens.

Hope this helps a bit

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

Thanks east winds...where does yang taiji mostly practice fajing? i see it clearly i the chen forms and know that the yang style has but where do they train it? thanks again
Respectfully,
marlon

 

[East Winds]

marlon,

The Yang form (as of course should every other form of taijiquan) expresses fajin at the ending point of each posture, i.e. the extreme Yang aspect of the posture. It is just less overt than that expressed by the Chens. And of course we develop it by the use of chousi.

Very best wishes

 

[marlon]

thanks again east winds

marlon

 

[marlon]

has anyone heard what chen style thinks of yang and vice verca?

respectfully,
marlon

 

[Xue Sheng]

has anyone heard what chen style thinks of yang and vice verca?

respectfully,
marlon

I can only tell you what my Yang sifu says about Chen style, He likes CHen style but he says "it is to low"

And what a Chen family member once told me about yang style, "It's to high"

 

[Nobody]

My teacher said that as well Xue Sheng, but adds this that it is easier to see the application with Chen than with Yang. He is suggesting the idea of when one looks at or does a form in largest circle the body can travel is often the easiest to understand for most people. My instructor does prefer the Yang himself.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My teacher said that as well Xue Sheng, but adds this that it is easier to see the application with Chen than with Yang. He is suggesting the idea of when one looks at or does a form in largest circle the body can travel is often the easiest to understand for most people. My instructor does prefer the Yang himself.

My Sifu’s full statement about Yang vs. Chen is similar and he adds that where Chen is likely to hit you with fajing Yang is likely to circle and redirect. Both are good and both are very capable of putting their opponent on the ground, they just approach it slightly differently.
My Sifu only does Yang and that is all he has done for many many years but he does like what he sees the Chen family doing.

He has said that there is more fajing in Chen that Yang and Yang tends to be softer than Chen but he likes the way Yang handles things better.

 

[Nobody]

The instructor i am talking about only does Yang as well he would say the same about Yang that your instructor is saying an believe that it is do to silk reeling that fajing is more use in Chen plus the lack of mobility of the stance for Chen.

The height of the stance has a different effect to me on the way to affect incoming strike. This is my opinion. For me Chen is more toward throwing than Yang, Chen do to the height of the stance the use of your own body weight with that of your opponent is what often gets them thrown. I do Chen an can say that it is easier for me to throw someone with Chen than Yang, but yang is easier to control the opponent who is usually unaware of where the reading force is actually going that seems to be what yang trains the most is reading. Yang seems to use traps an take downs more when fighting someone that is using more strikes.