Cheeky Request of this board

[jonah2]

Sir,
Been away from the computer for a few days, hence the gap in my responce. Didn't get the camera so i'll have to wait before I post a clip.

A Kenpoist (or possibly Kajukenbo-ist?) joined the local FMA class in which I am studying this week. He immediately dropped into a deep horse stance for the Heaven Six sinawali, and I had trouble getting him up out of it! I don't know what footwork you're doing, but usually you want to be light on your feet. Often we'll go low for a low strike, especially in Earth Six sinawali, but always light on the feet and mobile, moving a round, circling, changing direction, and trying to get some hip into those strikes. This mobility issue was hard for me initially as I came from a traditional Okinwan Karate background.

I know what you mean about deep stances. I have a Wado background my-self. It took me a long time to drop the low and deep stances (I still think i'm a little deep in some stances). Kenpo promotes a good solid base but not the traditional low and deep Okinawan style which is difficult to maintain mobility. In my mind the stances in kenpo are flowing and would suit constant movement.

At present I am only using a stright switch movement with the feet. I am withdrwing each leg in turn on beat 2 and 5 on the six count. I read somewhere that as these are where a low knee strike could be thrown its best to draw back the target. From clips I've seen of people doing this footwork their stance is similar (but not the same) as we would class a forward bow (stance) ie weight distribution 70/30 front leg/back leg with hips and shoulders facing forward. However, I have been practicing with two slightly different stances. The first would be what we would class a nuetral stance ie weight distribution 50/50 with shoulders and hips angled away from the front (horse stance on the angle) or the traditional boxers stance, similar to the forward bow but not as deep and with the rear leg bent and rear foot on the ball rather than flat. I'm sure there will be alot of my fellow kenpoist will strike me down for body mechanics here.

I'm tending to favour a transitional foward through nuetral stance from counts 2 to 3 then back up to feet together (high horse) at count 4. This brings the hips into play adding torque to the strike (I think)

Looking forward to further discussion and tips

jonah

 

[JPR]

If you are going to do footwork in FMA, you will quickly find the need to do triangular type moving. Most (all?) FMA styles have this triangular footwork in lieu of linear. It is essential to zoning away from weapons into “zero pressure” zones, or to flanking an opponent.

A simple drill follows:

To start, imagine (or better yet get some tape and lay out on the floor ) an X with the top arms and the bottom legs going off at 45 degree angles. Put yourself at the center of the X. The top portion in front of you (a V if you will) is the advancing female triangle, the portion behind you is the retreating male triangle. Now begin doing your siniwali. Assuming it is a six count, as you throw your first strike, step up the right side of the female triangle. As you throw your third strike, step back to the center. As you throw strike number 4 step up the left side of the triangle, strike 6 step back to the center. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

You can then do the same drill on the retreating angles.

Circling forward and backward are also good drills / patterns for your footwork.

Hope this helps.

Jerry

 

[jonah2]

To start, imagine (or better yet get some tape and lay out on the floor ) an X with the top arms and the bottom legs going off at 45 degree angles. Put yourself at the center of the X. The top portion in front of you (a V if you will) is the advancing female triangle, the portion behind you is the retreating male triangle. Now begin doing your siniwali. Assuming it is a six count, as you throw your first strike, step up the right side of the female triangle. As you throw your third strike, step back to the center. As you throw strike number 4 step up the left side of the triangle, strike 6 step back to the center. Repeat, repeat, repeat.

You can then do the same drill on the retreating angles.

Circling forward and backward are also good drills / patterns for your footwork.

Hope this helps.

Jerry

Ok, I just tried this and fell into the movements very comfortably, both 'male' and 'female' (BTW thanks for the description - heard it mensioned before and thought it was a reference to inside and outside of attacks).

Any reason you step on counts 1 and 4 and return on counts 3 and 6 or is it a timing / co-ordination / form thing. As i mensioned before I can understand stepping on the 'male' triangle on counts 2 and 5 to withdraw the leg from a possible strike.

Thanks for the responce anyway

jonah

 

[arnisador]

There are many ways to do the footwork with it. Some people step to avoid the strike, others to get power in their own strikes. Honestly, as long as you're moving it's probably fine!

 

[JPR]

Well, my first answer to “any reason” is because that is the way I was taught the drill.

The second answer would be, it is just a co-ordination thing. You could, if you have the room, always step forward on alternating angles. Just about any pattern you can think of works, as you are training your feet and hands to move simultaneously. Also, though some movements translate directly to sparring / fighting applications, be careful of projecting the drill too far into this territory. The drills are more for development of skills that you later apply to your sparring.

Jerry

 

[jonah2]

Thank you Arnisador and JPR - more questions and discussions later I'm sure but for now back to the sticks eh!

jonah

 

[jonah2]

Ok - hope you guys aren't bored of me yet

I've read that the FMA tend to concentrate more on angles of attack with regard to striking rather than on specific target - which I can understand.

Although I can see that any contact of stick to target would be good I assume that you would train to taget in areas of maximum devistation.

Could someone explaing the main target areas and the angles to which these targets should be attacked or alternatively any that should be avoided

For instance I can see that a temple strike would be done most effectively on a downward diagonal path transfering the maximum impact into the target. Would it go against any principles to say attack the temple with a horizontal strike or indeed an upward diagonal strike.

Im trying to relate my kempo principles to the stick.

jonah

 

[JPR]

Jonah,

This is a bit of a harder question to give you an answer on due to a large number of variables. So, in an attempt, to give you something of an answer, here I go.

Variable 1: Style / Family. What style are you studying, or do you intend to study. Each style or family of FMA has a template of angles of attack, that being said, there really are only so many angles to choose from. Diagonal down, diagonal up, horizontal, vertical, and thrusts cover the basics of most all systems. The thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26755 has several of these templates from different styles.

Variable 2: Range. At long range, I target your hand, because it is all I can reach. As the range closes, more of your body becomes available for me to target and I can start hunting your head, arm, knee, ribs, foot, what ever. At close / extremely close range I can not even strike you well with the “belly” of the stick and would then transition to using the punyo and looking to strike your head mostly (maybe a collar bone smash with the punyo).

Variable 3: Target. To some extent the target determines the strike. I could use a thrust against your hand, but it is a low probability that I will hit your hand with a thrust. Therefore, I would use some other type of strike at your hand.

Variable 4: Stick or blade. This can change what you target and how you strike. The type of blade you are training with can also make a difference (a barong isn’t the best for thrusting).

Variable 5: Weapon position. What you target may well depend upon where you are striking / thrusting from. If I am at close range to you and my weapon is low, I probably target your body and not your head (as it is too far away).

This isn’t meant to be an exhaustive list, just a sampling of the variables you face. When you start mixing them you get a huge basket of possibilities. Close range with the stick has far different targets than close range with the knife.

Ok, now that I have wandered far from your original question, I’ll come back to it and choose one of the variables to help me, range.

At long range you are targeting the hand. Downward diagonals, horizontal, or vertical shots can all get at a hand.

At medium range, most of the body becomes available. You target head , arms, knees, body.

At close range with a stick you are into punyo striking.

As to principles, when I ask FMA instructors a question, the usual answer is, “you could do it that way.” Then they usually show me a better idea. The main principle is efficiency / optimal use of motion. An upward diagonal strike could hit the temple, but the knee / groin / ribs are much closer. Unless, of course, you have the guy bent over double with the previous damage you did to him and his head is hovering at about waist level, then an upward diagonal is an efficient head strike.

In general, pick one system’s template, learn it, and drill it so that the strikes can be chained together and flow.

Jerry

 

[jonah2]

JPR

Thanks very much for the responce. As I stated in my first post I am not 'Studying' any particular art in the correct sence of the word. I am very interested in the use of double stick since my introduction to them in a Kenpo class a few weeks ago. Something about it just feels good and I just want to give it a go. unfortunately there are no FMA schools local to me and I cant afford to study two arts. Kenpo is my chosen art but want to add some stick work as and when I can (sometimes in the very early hours of the morning).

Of course when you are not training from an instructor you can train incorrectly with results that are hard to correct, however I cant help swinging the sticks around so want to learn as correctly as I can. I obviously will never be as good as I could be with them if I trained FMA, but at least I'll be doing something.

For some reason I can't get the link you provided to work, however, I have read a thread regarding patterns from a vast number of sources and it was very informative. I think it must be the same one

The reason I asked the question was that through my Kenpo studies to date I have learned that there are vast numbers of things open to you, of which, if you follow the concepts and principles laid down rather then set actions you cant do much wrong. but, alot can go wrong when you deviate from them. So my question was trying to learn what I can do by finding out basically what I shouldn't do!

Thank you for your advice. I am trying to work different patterns of movement at present to strengthen my technique and mould the muscle memory, but don't want to be doing anything that I have to un-do.

I'm hoping to use this thread as a learning tool and offer some of my findings for criticism. I consider this to be my best way of learning. So If you (or any one else) wants to set me question or task or give any tips please do - I would appreciate it greatly.

jonah

 

[jonah2]

Variable 2: Range. At long range, I target your hand, because it is all I can reach. As the range closes, more of your body becomes available for me to target and I can start hunting your head, arm, knee, ribs, foot, what ever. At close / extremely close range I can not even strike you well with the “belly” of the stick and would then transition to using the punyo and looking to strike your head mostly (maybe a collar bone smash with the punyo).

I assume by 'punyo' you mean the short or butt end of the stick.

I've tried examining this lately, and it would seem to me this type of stike is restricted to a 'stabbing motion' due to the restriction of not hitting yourself with the logger section of the stick. I would love to learn more obviously

Variable 3: Target. To some extent the target determines the strike. I could use a thrust against your hand, but it is a low probability that I will hit your hand with a thrust. Therefore, I would use some other type of strike at your hand.

We train to some extent with empy hand to strike hard with soft and soft with hard. Presumably a weapon now changes that to target hard areas (bone) as a majority with I suppose the exception of a thrust which a can see working well on a sturnum stike

Cheers

jonah

 

[Ern-Dog]

I assume by 'punyo' you mean the short or butt end of the stick.

I've tried examining this lately, and it would seem to me this type of strike is restricted to a 'stabbing motion' due to the restriction of not hitting yourself with the logger section of the stick. I would love to learn more obviously

In FCS Kali we have a range dedicated to the use of the punyo strike. We call it Punyo Mano. In short, it deals with different methods of striking with the punyo, and the ability to generate a lot of striking power in close proximaty to your opponant. We also teach the the use of the punyo as a means to manipulate and move your opponants limbs and body.

 

[jonah2]

Ern Dog,

Thanks for joining in.

I'd love for someone to elaborate on striking related to the punyo.

With regard to manipulating / moving the opponent. I have run through these things previously (god, do I ever stop). I can see manupulation working well with one stick and a grab, but not with two sticks. I can see the panyo also being very useful in the 'trap' of weapons (non edged) or limbs / head.

Any chance of listing some things for me to try.

jonah (the cheeky request guy)

 

[arnisador]

The reason I asked the question was that through my Kenpo studies to date I have learned that there are vast numbers of things open to you, of which, if you follow the concepts and principles laid down rather then set actions you cant do much wrong. but, alot can go wrong when you deviate from them.

As JPR indicates, in the FMA you'll get a lot more of 'sure, you could do it that way' followed by a principle which may work better. It's less proscriptive than many other martial arts. You don't get much 'the elbow should be exactly one fist-width away from the body' (as I did when I took Karate) but instead you get a lot of more general advice. The principles come first in the FMA, from which techniques are worked out; I viewed my Karate training, to a certain extent, as having to extract the principles from the techniques. In Kenpo I believe the two go more hand-in-hand (techniques and principles together).

Angles of attack in name vary from art to art, but basically you get the usual vertical, horizontal, and diagonal slashes, some thrusts, and a few specialized strikes. As to targets, the stick is good for hard surfaces, but will hurt most places that it lands. Still, people will take a surprisingly hard shot to the forearm or thigh and keep coming. Land the same strike on the elbow or kneecap and it's a different story. In a stick fight things move very quickly--weapon speed greatly exceeds hand speed--so it may be optimistic to plan on targetting the thumb (often thought of as optimal for getting your opponent to drop his stick) rather than just anywhere on the hand.

Remember also that many FMA practitioners will view the stick as a substitute for the sword--less so in sinawalis, perhaps, because of the way the sticks tend to clank together, but even still, within a sinawali a strike may be viewed as a sword strike. That changes things.

 

[arnisador]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18544
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28523
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=162
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=216

The last link describes one sinawali that does use the punyo (butt end of the stick).

 

[jonah2]

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18544
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28523
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=162
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=216

The last link describes one sinawali that does use the punyo (butt end of the stick).

Thanks arnisador, informative as always - I read the description of the punyo sinawali and it meant absolutely nothing to me - couldn't envisage the motion - but I will read it again and try it

In that post you describe this:

"...Do a right hirada (redondo) strike to the end of the other person's stick..."

What does this mean **edit - I should read your other links before I post silly comments like this - sorry**

jonah

 

[arnisador]

Hmmm, the hirada is a circular ('flywheel') motion that is entirely in the vertical plane. It's hard to describe...stand right foot forward with the stick in your right hand, running along your waist, more-or-less parallel to the floor. Face a little toward your opponent. Using mostly your wrist and not much elbow, but a little bit of hip motion turning back to your left, whip the stick through a circle in a vertical plane, targetting your opponent's wrist. For much of this motion, your right palm faces the wall to your left (again, more-or-less). Make a full circle and come back to (essentially) your starting position. This should be a very fast strike.

It's similar to an abaniqo in some ways but strikes with the edge of the blade, not the flat, and continues through in a circle rather than whipping back along its outgoing path.

Don't try this with a heavy stick--it can be hard on the wrist.